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Discussion Starter #1
Hello to all. I just bought a year 2000 Insight with a manual trans and 86000 miles on it. I bought it knowing that it needed a new O2 sensor and that was triggering the CEL light to be on. The question now becomes how to fix this issue.

The O2 sensor diagnosis comes to me second hand from the previous owner who took it in to a shop just prior to selling it. I have to have faith that this diagnosis is correct, though from some reading I have seen that there may be additional problems being masked by the 02 sensor being bad. I don't know how long it has been this way, but the lifetime fuel economy is really low for this car at 45.8!!!?!

What should be my next step?

The car is likely to be outside of warranty on the emission systems, right? 80K? I'm at 86K. That should rule out a trip to a dealership.

Is there any reliable way to find a local mechanic who can work on an Insight? Just call and ask if they have any experience? Any particular questions to ask? I live in Lexington/Georgetown, Kentucky. Any Insight owners who live in this area?

Is the O2 sensor something that I should consider replacing on my own? I have read up on it a little bit and it seems like it is just a matter of unplugging the old one and plugging in the new. Is it this simple? Any guidance on DIY replacement?

Any help or suggestions are greatly appreciated.
 

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Your car has two O2 sensors; the LAF sensor(Lean Air Fuel) and secondary O2 sensor.

The LAF sesnor is the most important input to your PCM besides the MAP sensor. If the LAF is bad (and it may not trigger a CEL) then the A/F ratio will be all wonky and cause major problems.

The secondary O2 is there to basically verify that the cat is working. As far as I can tell it does not effect the A/F ratio.

Both sensors are easy to replace if you have the appropriate socket (it's special). The LAF is around $250 last time I checked, the secondary O2 is slightly more.
 

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If the O2 sensors have been confirmed to be a problem with a bench test then they will need to be replaced. However, I would take the car to a dealership and have them run your VIN number and see if the ECM recall has been done. There were some issues with early Insight's throwing false O2 sensor codes and that was part of the fix.
 

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...but then the ECM recall has the tendency to kill cats, or at least suddenly decide that they are bad...Personally I would rather have the old ECM and replace a LAF sensor every few years. :) Too late for me now though, unless someone wants to trade ECMs... :)
 

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Insightful Trekker said:
HUH :?: :!: Where did you get this information :?: Links please. :)
Sincerely,
...OR at least decided that the cats are suddenly bad. That was probably the most important part of that statement.

This is based on what I have observed here and on the mailing list, as well as my own experience. As soon as the ECM was updated, the P0420 appeared and many have had cat replacements (some in warranty, others not) because of it. There was a long discussion on the Yahoo! list about 8-10 months ago covering this.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
I dug up the receipt that the previous owner provided from when he got the problem diagnosed. It was diagnosed at a Honda dealer in West Virginia as throwing a code: PO1164. Can anyone verify that code?

The first dealer said it needs a new O2 sensor (I think it is the LAF sensor) with a cost of $240 parts, $26 labor. Now, I call my local dealer in Lexington, KY and they say the same repair will cost $365 parts and labor! I checked around and I can find the same part online for $180. Pretty hefty markup considering the place selling me the part direct at $180 is still making a profit on the sale. I guess I will call around to a couple repair shops in town and see if I can get a more fair price since my Insight is just outside the warranty at 86K.

Anyone else care to share their experiences?
 

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DTC#P1164

P1164 is the code for "A/F Sensor(sensor1)Range/Preformance Problem" I also have a 2000 MT since new with 69000 miles on it. Resently the Check Engine light came on.I cleared it with my code reader,and it has not come back on.The Honda Manual calls for the code to be cleared and road test the car,and if the light comes back on - to replace the O2 sensor.If not it's decleared a "Intermittent failure,system OK at this time"."Check for poor coonections or looose terminals at C102(located under the right side of the dash),the A/F sensor relay,the A/F sensor(Sensor1)and the ECM.".Sensor #1 is the one before the cat,at the top of the verticle cat,right in back of the engine head exhaust side.

The O2 Sensor #1 is a 5 wire planar zirconia ceramic 2 part sensor element.It's a complex device that really can't be bench tested.It's called a "planer" because the element is a flat strip 1.5 mm thick.The electrodes,conductive layers of ceramic,insulation and heaters are laminated together on a single strip.The design is smaller,lighter, more resistance to contamination,the heaters require less power,and can reach operating temperatures in 10 seconds.The heater circuit is a pluse-width modulated to maintain a consistent operating temperature of 1292 to 1472 degrees F.

Here is a diagram of a wideban sensor " http://www.boschusa.com/popup_image.asp ... bandsensor "

It measures the air/fuel ratio directly,instead of switching back and forth like all previous designs.The signal output is directly proportional to the air/fuel ratio.It uses a Dual Sensing element that combines the Nernst effect cell in the planer design with an additional oxygen pump layer and diffusion gap on the same strip.The result is a sensor element that can precisely measure air/fuel ratios from the vary rich(10:1)to extremely lean(straight air). This allows the engineECM to use an entirely different operating stategy to control the air/fuel ratio.Instead of switching the air/fuel ratio back and forth from rich to lean to create an average balanced mixture,it can add or subtract fuel as needed to maintain a steady ratio.

I know of 2 direct fit OEM type;Bosch #15393 for $204.44 and a Denso#234-4094 for 108.10 both discounted.I pull my factory one out it's a NTK#L2H2 and it had some black carbon on the base of the outer tube.My MPG has been down,so i have the Denso on order.The unit will age and is designed for 100,000 miles,so i felt it was worthwille to change it out. Hopes this helps every one out.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Wow, Tuna. Thanks for the great information. I am going to print out the first part of your post to bring with me to the mechanic. They should know those things too, but it can be hard to find a mechanic experienced in working with hybrids. That may change in the years to come, but for now they are few and far between.
 

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Wow tuna1 :shock: :D

But now we know what you do for a living (design LAF O2 sensors) :p

Great post :!: :D

Also see:

http://www.insightcentral.net/encyclopedia/enlaf.html

And there is an "early" 5 wire type 00-01 ( :?: ) and a later standard "looking" 4 wire type (but it is still LAF) Which is not interchangable with a non LAF (usually lower cost) sensor.

HTH! :)
 

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Don't know about the ECM killing cats,(Or more likely just more accurately recognizing dead cats)

Mine were replaced and had pretty bad rattle to the main. Read my issues here:
http://www.insightcentral.net/forum/vie ... php?t=3908

As for my O2 Sensors, I will wait to replace those till they code on me... will be paying off the cats for awhile :evil:
 

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Yup :!:

At least some LAF failures will not set a corresponding code :!: :shock:

Anyone with a Honda LAF equipped car that is experiencing historically low MPG (your driving history), sluggishness, or rough engine / misfires needs to eliminate the LAF as a potential cause ASAP :!: Aaron's LAF failed in one of the worst to patterns to identify, intermittant. Ignoring the above symptoms can and ultimately will result in premature CAT damage requiring replacement ($,$$$ :shock: :( ).

Propane enrichment of the engine @ idle while directly measuring the LAF's output for the corresponding rich "spike" is one proven diagnostic proceedure.

HTH! :)
 

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Bad News

I am not sure if this is my ignorance or what, but I order a Denso #234-4093 which the Densoproducts.com site said was the pre-cat sensor for my 2000MT and it doesn't match. The factor sensor in my car is also the l2h2 NTK with five wires but the "first time fit" one doesn't work, the adapter is wrong and it has four wires.
I am assuming thought :) that I am looking at the correct sensor, the first sensor at the top of the exhaust manifold pre-cat.
Hope this saves others some trouble, and please let me know if I am incorrect.
Anyone ever order and aftermarket LAF that worked?????


I hope you guys trust a newbies :)
 

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Thanks for the reply

Looks like I am off to the Dealer with my tail between my legs. I hate giving in to The Man. :D
 

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Re: Bad News

SilverSurfer said:
I am not sure if this is my ignorance or what, but I order a Denso #234-4093 which the Densoproducts.com site said was the pre-cat sensor for my 2000MT and it doesn't match.
Were you able to get your LAF situation resolved? If you don't mind my asking, what did you end up paying for the part and/or labor?
 

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Re: Bad News

idfubar said:
SilverSurfer said:
I am not sure if this is my ignorance or what, but I order a Denso #234-4093 which the Densoproducts.com site said was the pre-cat sensor for my 2000MT and it doesn't match.
Were you able to get your LAF situation resolved? If you don't mind my asking, what did you end up paying for the part and/or labor?
SilverSurfer stated that the Denso #234-4093 did not work and that he ended up using the wideband O2 sensor from Honda.
 
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