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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Hi All,

Not been on here very much recently, been very busy with work, and spending a bit of time on the IMIEV forums, as I recently bought one to replace my Celica. I can only report good things with the IMIEV - its a great little car, and super smooth, perfect for my suburban London usage.

The Insight on the other hand has been a nightmare. October 2014 I noticed drive (transmission???) jerking after an ECU update (coincidence or contributory I have no idea).

No fault codes were ever seen, so the dealership brushed it off. I moaned at them and Honda UK for about 2 years as the car got worse. In March 2016 they replaced the EGR valve under extended warranty when I had it in for an airbag recall - that made no difference, and the car was becoming more sluggish, more temperamental, hunting, banging and jerking around allover the place up to about 20mph. Ive had the engine cut out 3 times now after large surges - but essentially:

-its become worse
-its the entire drive; accel, braking, changing speed, reversing, pull-away etc - all weak and lumpy/ jerking.
-the ownership experience has been awful, and my wife doesn't even feel particularly safe driving it any longer with the baby in the car (and I concur, the car is driving like junk).
-its been serviced by the book by Honda too.
-48K miles
-ECO mode is worse all round

Just as it was about service time this year, I wrote another strongly worded letter to Honda UK and the dealership expressing my frustrations that they believe the car to be fine when it reads ok on the ECU scan - but it isnt. Without the correct diagnosis I have been unable to fix it, drive it properly, unable to sell it - just stuck in limbo really, at a time when I dont have the free time to mess about with the thing. I just needed it working like a Honda should. My 17 year old Accord is still 100% fine!

Honda wrote back to me informing me they have instructed the dealership to undertake a 'full test as per the opened case for the car'. I had the car in today, and they said that the ECU was still clear, but during a 10 mile test with different diagnostics, it shows a coil pack fault, and is misfiring.

I'm trying to understand how a coil pack could produce all these symptoms, when I believed it to be CVT related based on the type of adverse drive I have - but I am willing to listen to a point if that's what they think, as I don't have the answer either.

If it turns out to be a coil pack - shouldn't that be picked up by the ECU??? Thought it would be. If it is this, its taken them 5 visits and 27 months to get there,over which time ive had a crappy car, and the extended warranty expire - though I am going to fight Honda on principal if they ask me to foot any of this bill, as the dealership have been extremely poor in getting there (though the money side is a different matter).

Plus, I still wont know if the coil pack will fix the fault, its only the most recent diagnosis - which i'll have to go with, and see if it helps.

Ben
 

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Discussion Starter #4
As per the book... every 2 years, December 2014 when I first got the car and at this service. It was done in 2012 as well... and it's done about 13000 miles over the last 2 years.
 

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Could well be coil pack. You could get weird CVT behaviour as the car tries to compensate.

Just another question: where have you been fueling it? I've noticed my car gets the jerks if fueled up at Morrison's and takes a tank or two to recover afterwards. I tend to stick to one of the branded garages, like BP now (still just RON 95 though).
 

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Could well be coil pack. You could get weird CVT behaviour as the car tries to compensate.

Just another question: where have you been fueling it? I've noticed my car gets the jerks if fueled up at Morrison's and takes a tank or two to recover afterwards. I tend to stick to one of the branded garages, like BP now (still just RON 95 though).
Best if luck with it,surprised,my 2010,doesent miss a beat,was lumpy,jerky,update fixed that,id change plugs Sewell as coil etc
 

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Discussion Starter #7 (Edited)
Could well be coil pack. You could get weird CVT behaviour as the car tries to compensate.

Just another question: where have you been fueling it? I've noticed my car gets the jerks if fueled up at Morrison's and takes a tank or two to recover afterwards. I tend to stick to one of the branded garages, like BP now (still just RON 95 though).
I often do fill up at Morrisons, as there is one close. I could move over to Shell actually, its hardly any difference in price. Though I do use Redex additive about 4 times a year, which is about once every 3-4 tanks.

Ive always been a bit skeptical of the brand vs supermarket fuel debate - as I cant see how there would too much difference in the fuel itself (has to meet Euro/ British Standards, comes from the same refineries etc). The only difference I can see is that there may be different additives in brand vs supermarkets, OR that the supermarket pump/ tanks are not as well kept (though I would have thought they need to do regular assays to ensure there isn't any water/ diesel/ other contamination.

There is the summer and winter blend changes which should mean that the car may respond slightly differently - though if this is an intermittent sparking issue, I can see a logical correlation to all this.

Ive got several circulating thoughts in my mind about all this (and bearing in mind the car is still at Honda awaiting a plan):

- Can any engine or CVT damage have resulted over the last 2 years from this?
- This doesnt seem to be a common issue reported on the site
- Why has it taken the dealer over 2 years to undertake appropriate diagnostics after repeated complaints.

Whats the UK spark plug change interval again - was it 6 years, or 60,000 miles, or 8 - I cant remember.

Clearly, irrespective of whether this car is fixed or not during this chapter, I have serious considerations as to keep or sell. My anecdotal experience has been poor, so there is a cloud hanging over the model (well this car), I dont like CVTs anyway, and the front passenger legroom has always been a squeeze with a kids seat in the back, with the car only just about large enough for us (though we could manage really).

Since we sold my wife's excellent RAV4 3 door to get the Insight, which has overall been a dissapointment - I have been considering another RAV (though the pre CVT ones), or a Lexus RX 400/ 450H, as fuel economy has become less important as I have a full EV for most weekend runs, and the mileage done by the Insight has fallen due to a change in jobs (5K miles a year now only). I'm not a huge SUV fan, but it would be fairly practical to have one 4x4 vehicle, with the RAV/ RX having non-permanent 4-wheel drive, Vs the older ones that had full time 4 x 4. Would consider a CR-V or Toyota Verso, though not too much proce difference between used RAV and CRV, and the Verso is OK, but there is a rather uninspiring choice of automatic variants (she wants auto), and we don't really need the extra 2 seats.

I wonder if ECU updates have contained revisions to coil pack firing, or if this is a pure electrical fault. Does the I2 have individual packs per spark plug, per 2 plugs per cylinder, or a combined system for all 8 plugs?

I looked on ebay, and it seems each plug is is an individual coil pack, like most Japanese cars tend to be.

This is the 9th Honda I've owned (more than any other brand), and this will be the first electrical issue on a Honda I will have ever had. The only other fault I have had was ages ago on a 1987 Accord EXI 2.0 ALB auto, where the clutch on 3rd gear went after 100K miles - and that was a very long time ago!
 

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Morrison's have, on occasion, used a higher proportion of ethanol in their standard RON 95 than any other major UK retailer (not that it's a bad thing) but generally in the UK, even our worst fuel has been of a relatively high standard. That's one reason why I believe the piston rings problem on 2012+ Insights hasn't emerged in the European market like it did in the states. I just mention it because of noticing a mild issue when using Morrison's fuel in particular.

Also I think spark plugs are 100,000 miles. I'm at 73k and it's not come up yet on SVRS. I have the standard interval service sheet somewhere and that rings a bell.

Aside from that (the Sun isn't my favourite source but there you go) but there have been several reports of Morrison's main supplier Greenenergy having contaminated fuel batches in the south of England. This is a recent one: https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.thesun.co.uk/news/1831189/morrisons-customers-claim-petrol-contamination-caused-several-cars-to-break-down-causing-thousands-of-pounds-worth-of-damage/amp/?client=ms-android-samsung

And something a bit more substantial than Sun readers whining: http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/motoring/dirty-fuel-blights-thousands but I can't see a date. It may even be the big problem they had back in 2007 but that couldn't have affected your car.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Morrison's have, on occasion, used a higher proportion of ethanol in their standard RON 95 than any other major UK retailer (not that it's a bad thing) but generally in the UK, even our worst fuel has been of a relatively high standard. That's one reason why I believe the piston rings problem on 2012+ Insights hasn't emerged in the European market like it did in the states. I just mention it because of noticing a mild issue when using Morrison's fuel in particular.

Also I think spark plugs are 100,000 miles. I'm at 73k and it's not come up yet on SVRS. I have the standard interval service sheet somewhere and that rings a bell.

Aside from that (the Sun isn't my favourite source but there you go) but there have been several reports of Morrison's main supplier Greenenergy having contaminated fuel batches in the south of England. This is a recent one: https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.thesun.co.uk/news/1831189/morrisons-customers-claim-petrol-contamination-caused-several-cars-to-break-down-causing-thousands-of-pounds-worth-of-damage/amp/?client=ms-android-samsung

And something a bit more substantial than Sun readers whining: Dirty fuel blights thousands | Autocar but I can't see a date. It may even be the big problem they had back in 2007 but that couldn't have affected your car.
Robert and Patricia Caines from Little Clacton in Essex look like bonafide Sun readers to me - though I take your point.

... this has been going on for ages now, and ive filled up with Shell lots of times, V-power and regular, and it makes little difference.
 

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This is the 9th Honda I've owned (more than any other brand), and this will be the first electrical issue on a Honda I will have ever had. The only other fault I have had was ages ago on a 1987 Accord EXI 2.0 ALB auto, where the clutch on 3rd gear went after 100K miles - and that was a very long time ago!
Well, if it makes you feel better, my Fit started running rougher and rougher at around 105-110k. Never a code at all, but it got to the point of bucking and jerking and power loss.

New set of coil packs and it ran like a sewing machine again. 182k on it now, and the only other problem I've had with it is the EGR failing to close sporadically and causing it to die at idle.
 

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Discussion Starter #11 (Edited)
Well, if it makes you feel better, my Fit started running rougher and rougher at around 105-110k. Never a code at all, but it got to the point of bucking and jerking and power loss.


New set of coil packs and it ran like a sewing machine again. 182k on it now, and the only other problem I've had with it is the EGR failing to close sporadically and causing it to die at idle.
Thanks - good to know.

Got a call back from the dealer today:

Went something like this:

Dealer: 'Car was misfiring on cylinder 2, but when we removed the coils and plugs and tested them all, they were fine'

Me: 'You are the experts, if you tell me it's misfiring, you're the best people do diagnose a fault with your own product. OK, so that's one coil pack to be replaced backdated under warranty from 27 months ago then'.

Dealer: 'Well Honda advise that a bank of 4 coils are replaced, and while everything is out, Honda would recommend changing all the spark plugs too'.

Me: 'Well, that makes no rational sense to me. Either the fault is the coil or it's not. Why replace 4 of them, and particularly all the spark plugs too when you cant be certain that it will be curative'.

Dealer: ' our best estimates are the coils as its a misfire, and the plugs should be replaced at the same time as everything is out at the moment'.

Me: 'Whats the price of all this work?'

Dealer: '£862'.

Me: 'Well, I hope Honda UK see the world from the same position as you and I, because that sounds like a load of work for a non-absolute diagnosis. As you could imagine, after 27 months of messing about, I don't really feel like having a big argument with either Honda or you about it, so I trust you will be acting in my best interests'.

Dealer: 'This work should be the first thing we do'.

Me: 'Fine, please keep me updated, but remember you are acting on your own advice and that of Honda'.

Dealer: 'OK, ill call you before the end of the day'.

Me: 'I have made arrangements for this week, as it looks like you may end up with this car for a while'.

... and they didn't phone me back either... must have all be working in to the night trying to fix this thing.

Seems like the only people that can still get paid for not fixing the problems are:

Doctors
Lawyers
Politicians
Honda

There is a big element of risk aversion here, something i'm getting all to much experience with these days. A good set up would replace only a duff part, so I'm not totally convinced that they are even looking in the right direction, though I am keeping an open mind of sorts. I'm confident that there is no reason they can either expect me to take the car back still unresolved, and even less chance that they could ask me to cough any of my hard earned post-tax income.

I am considering taking this matter up with the trading standards people once/if the car is fixed, I have a suspicion that correct procedures were not only not followed, but misrepresented on my service invoices - but that's something for another time.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
OK so Honda have now had the car 1 week and 5 days. In that time they have seemingly done little... following my last post they told me that Honda UK wanted a picture of all 8 spark plugs... thats the stage I'm at.

I called HOnda UK and they told me they would get back to me, but they have failed to do so.

Extremely poor customer service continues, car no closer to being fixed yet.
 

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Well, if it makes you feel better, my Fit started running rougher and rougher at around 105-110k. Never a code at all, but it got to the point of bucking and jerking and power loss.

New set of coil packs and it ran like a sewing machine again. 182k on it now, and the only other problem I've had with it is the EGR failing to close sporadically and causing it to die at idle.
I'll chime in too on plugs/coils.

On one of our '06 HCH2, flashing CEL (active misfires), P030X all over the place and running like ****... all 8 plugs replaced. All codes gone. Ran much better for about 30 days with a nagging "stumble" at certain times.

Fortunately, I had a second '06, so I swapped all the front coils... problem moved to the other car. I then isolated it to one coil and replaced it with a Hitachi OEM style coil for $40 from Rockauto.com.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
I'll chime in too on plugs/coils.

On one of our '06 HCH2, flashing CEL (active misfires), P030X all over the place and running like ****... all 8 plugs replaced. All codes gone. Ran much better for about 30 days with a nagging "stumble" at certain times.

Fortunately, I had a second '06, so I swapped all the front coils... problem moved to the other car. I then isolated it to one coil and replaced it with a Hitachi OEM style coil for $40 from Rockauto.com.
Well Honda arent in the business of isolating the coil, they replace all 4 packs (which are dual each I think, 1 per cylinder), and while they are at it, the plugs too.

Problem is they told me the coil packs bench tested OK... im hopeful the plug and packs will fix it... but im at a loss as to why there was no ECU error code thrown ever with this. It makes no sense whatsoever - if there was a fault code, I could have fixed this ages ago, but there never was.

Also, why did they replace the EGR valve through this process - it doesn't inspire confidence.
 

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IMHO, nearly all dealer employed technicians aren't troubleshooters or diagnosticians or people applying experience and education to a problem.

They are code checkers.
They are troubleshooting-chart-followers.
They are Honda dealer knowledge database checkers.
They are part replacers.

If correction requires anything more than the above, they are incompetent.

The "service managers" or any other customer-facing service personnel are typically completely incompetent at everything technical and exist solely to provide a buffer between the customer and the idiots working on the car.

That sounds horribly bitter and angry, but I promise, I was completely calm when I wrote it... :)
 

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Discussion Starter #16 (Edited)
IMHO, nearly all dealer employed technicians aren't troubleshooters or diagnosticians or people applying experience and education to a problem.

They are code checkers.
They are troubleshooting-chart-followers.
They are Honda dealer knowledge database checkers.
They are part replacers.

If correction requires anything more than the above, they are incompetent.

The "service managers" or any other customer-facing service personnel are typically completely incompetent at everything technical and exist solely to provide a buffer between the customer and the idiots working on the car.

That sounds horribly bitter and angry, but I promise, I was completely calm when I wrote it... :)
You are totally right, they follow procedure - they don't engage their grey matter. My only rationale for servicing at the dealer was that I bought the car with an existing full cover extended warranty, with 2 years remaining (hence this fault emerged at a time when that Honda supplied extended warranty was valid... well actually still had 18 months on it - so I believe this is a failed diagnosis and a backdated fix to Oct 2014).

The extended warranty necessitated main dealer servicing I think, so I went with it to preserve it, especially when the car was faulty for so long, it gives me the precedent to complain. The IMA warranty for 8 years also necessitated main dealer servicing I think - so my plan is to get the car fixed, grumble a lot, and then service at Honda until its 8 years old and the IMA warranty is out, then I'll be servicing it myself, if indeed I have the patience to keep this damn thing.

I hope for the sake of my own vital signs, that they fix it this time, otherwise I may need a cardioversion.
 

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That's the one exception I'll make... if the dealer is paying for it, let them.

Sadly, one has to compromise their expectation of service and "hope" for the best.

I don't know about the UK, but the US doesn't require dealer servicing for the 8yr/80K mile warranty on the battery. It's illegal to do that here. The battery warranty is fed/state mandated as part of the emission system.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
I don't know about the UK, but the US doesn't require dealer servicing for the 8yr/80K mile warranty on the battery. It's illegal to do that here. The battery warranty is fed/state mandated as part of the emission system.
Probably the same here actually as a trading standards regulation I think, but the complexities of an existing fault, a Honda supplied extended warranty, and full dealer service when I bought it made it sensible to continue on that tangent I think.

Just got a call from the dealer... they now advise following the case by Honda Technical, the misfire is within the boundaries of normal behaviour, thus no further action.

Clearly, I do not accept that outcome, so Ive been on the phone to Honda Customer Relations for an hour, and they are taking it further so they say, but they seemed to listen to my issues.

Thus, still ongoing, still highly frustrating, no diagnosis yet... this may take a while. Honda Customer relations did say they I should get a second opinion - which will likely be in the new year after Xmas.

Shocking.
 

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Probably the same here actually as a trading standards regulation I think, but the complexities of an existing fault, a Honda supplied extended warranty, and full dealer service when I bought it made it sensible to continue on that tangent I think.

Just got a call from the dealer... they now advise following the case by Honda Technical, the misfire is within the boundaries of normal behaviour, thus no further action.

Clearly, I do not accept that outcome, so Ive been on the phone to Honda Customer Relations for an hour, and they are taking it further so they say, but they seemed to listen to my issues.

Thus, still ongoing, still highly frustrating, no diagnosis yet... this may take a while. Honda Customer relations did say they I should get a second opinion - which will likely be in the new year after Xmas.

Shocking.
Wow. Dicks.
 

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WTF, misfire is within normal operating parameters or something? What do they think, you were born yesterday?
 
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