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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Yes, you read that right. It hurts.

Sometimes the engine starts to "chug" (like it's REALLY REALLY rich) and the power, uphill just vanishes, it gets like 25mpg up the hill, with about 1/3rd assist, barely able to maintain 40mph on a uphill segment. Immediately after that uphill segment, when the engine does that, the downhill segment, feels like I'm dragging a plow, as if I let off the throttle, the car feels like I slam on the brakes, and slows down VERY quickly down the hill. To maintain speed, it requires assist, making only about 45-50mpg. (this is down-hill)

And sometimes, I can go up that hill making 45mpg, at 50mph (barely slowing down) with no assist, and once I peak, the downhill on the other side gives me 150 all the way down, with regen.

I have an idea, I will post it at the end, however I have hidden it (just highlight at the bottom), as I would REALLY like to hear ideas before seeing my crazy idea, that makes perfect sense.

Upstream O2 sensor, appears fine. I don't believe this is my problem. Appears to update frequently, about a .05 volt "jitter", but looks great.

First Cat, could be clogged... but I don't think that would cause the "random"ness of the issue.

Second Cat, could be clogged... Once again, I highly doubt that would cause the "random"ness of the issue.

Downstream O2 Sensor appears to be fine. Might be a little "going out", seems to have a slight "extra" delay over the upstream O2, however I've read it only tells the engine when the Cat isn't working, so I don't think this is the issue.


Things I think it COULD be, but not what I think the problem is.
1. Valves - anything related to them, as I have not checked them (however I would think this would be a more consistent problem if this were the problem)
2. EGR Valve. (I really don't know anything about this)
3. EGR Plate. (Once again, I really have ZERO understanding of the EGR system)
4. Fuel Injectors. (I would think if these were the problem, it would be more consistent)

Thanks for your help guys. I'm totally at a loss.


HIGHLIGHT BELOW THIS LINE TO REVEAL WHAT I THINK THE PROBLEM IS, come up with an idea in your head before reading it first, because my idea is downright crazy, but makes too much sense.
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I think the problem is my fuel line in the "Fuel Pump Assembly" is leaking. I know it is leaking, as that is what put me on the side of the road on the way home with the car. IF the car is leaking gas back into the gas tank, it makes sense it could actually at times, get air, in the gas lines. likely micro-bubbless, assuming running the throttle hard-ish, allows these bubbles into the fuel line, and assuming there is about 5-10% of the fuel as air, if the injectors are getting air in them, they will not inject properly, and they will cause the engine to run lean. The engine running lean is causing the injectors to inject more fuel, which the request for more fuel, is in turn increasing the amount of air in the lines, causing the computer to go all crazy thinking the car is lean. The car gets so rich, the fuel is no longer has complete combustion, which compounds the issue further. When I peak the top of the hill, and start going down hill, the engine is running so poorly, when I let off the throttle, it is unable to do it's "learn burn thing" (yes I know it's a CVT, but all modern cars have a "lean burn" style mode, for going downhills, and my CVT is 100% failing to be able to do this) I think I need a new Fuel Pump Assembly, as that would solve the "half useable tank of gas" and "air in the fuel lines" (which I have no idea how I could prove one way or the other)
The only thing that seems to fix this issue, is stopping, putting the car in neutral/park, for about 1-2 minutes(which it runs fairly rough for the first 10-20 seconds). Then it's back to 100% again.
EDIT: It is starting to seem like the less fuel in the tank, the worse this issue gets, however this is a hard one to prove, given that it's almost 200 miles from "full" to bad.

EDIT2:: One thing I think I forgot to mention. The Long Term Trim, has a really bad tendency to creep up to about +20. If I stop the car for more than 30 seconds, it slams back down to about +3. It's like once ***SOMETHING*** goes wrong, the LongTermTrim, goes to hell, and once that happens, I have to stop, and let the car idle, to allow the car to correct itself. The issue is obviously not the LongTermTrim itself, but something is making the car think it's CRAZY lean... and I need to find that to solve this issue I think.
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END HIDDEN TEXT


PS: If you can't read the hidden text, due to not able to highlight, you can quote it, and read the "quoted" text.
 

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Do you smell fuel anywhere? A common spot for rust hole is by the passenger side firewall where fuel line is attached to the firewall and turns 90 degrees.

Didn't you mention some fuel gage issues? It could be fuel sending unit issue.

Also if your car sat for a long time, rodents could have chewed some lines.

Make sure fuel is fresh in the tank.

Check coils (especially #2) for deterioration.

Check to make sure you got correct plugs and they are torqued correctly. (Seen loose plugs before)

Not trying to send you on wild goose chase, just offering ideas that you should rule out.
 

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You should have put this thread on your original post, it takes a while to search for previous problems that you have posted before. Seems like to me it's the trans. fluid thing. It is a CVT?
Going down hill you will get a lot of REGEN and that is a huge "brake" on the engine, especially when getting off the throttle.
HTH
Willie
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Freezin4 -
1. No Fuel Smells
2. Could totally be this, this is the part I want to replace.
3. Sat for a real long time. Could easily have some chew marks on the fuel pump ***. just haven't checked yet.
4. Hard to when it runs out of gas at half a tank, but I'm driving it as much as I can.
5. Great idea. Will do when I hit my dad's shop likely over the weekend.
6. This could be a issue. I'll likely order some plugs... seeing how old their filter was... it can't hurt.
7. Crazy ideas, are EXACTLY what I'm looking for. My goose chase has ended, and I'm out of ideas. Anything is a GREAT idea right now.

Firehawk618-
yes, it does much better (not speeds up a lot, but it does slowly speed up). The engine still suffers for a few moments however until it fixes itself in about 10 seconds, then idle smooths out.

Willie -
1. Sorry for not putting it in the other one, but I thought this issue might be relevant for archival.
2. It is a CVT.
3. I don't think the CVT would create that much engine-brake downhill, even if it was having issues. Plus it's 100% linked to the "lack of power" up the hill. (there's a few hills that it does it on, and it just makes no bloody sense to me)
4. It's not the engine regen. As I mentioned, when it's right, I can go down at ~150mpg, with 3bars regen. When it's messing up, I actually have to keep the throttle on, and use *assist* to keep from slowing down... down hill. It will accelerate in neutral down this same hill.


One thing I think I forgot to mention. The Long Term Trim, has a really bad tendency to creep up to about +20. If I stop the car for more than 30 seconds, it slams back down to about +3. It's like once ***SOMETHING*** goes wrong, the LongTermTrim, goes to hell, and once that happens, I have to stop, and let the car idle, to allow the car to correct itself. The issue is obviously not the LongTermTrim itself, but something is making the car think it's CRAZY lean... and I need to find that to solve this issue I think.

I feel stupid leaving that off the first post. ((Edited into the first post))
 

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Warning! Sticker shock may occur when getting quotes for indexed Gen 1 plugs from the dealer for the first time. But you'll only need them every 100,000 miles, and you'll only need three.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Warning! Sticker shock may occur when getting quotes for indexed Gen 1 plugs from the dealer for the first time. But you'll only need them every 100,000 miles, and you'll only need three.
Yeah, I've already checked, they hurt. But thinking of plugs, it seems they foul under load, and it seems it takes a 'lean' moment to get them to work properly again... I still think it's the fuel pump assembly though, each trip across town is getting worse. (as the tank empties I think)
 

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Yeah, I've already checked, they hurt. But thinking of plugs, it seems they foul under load, and it seems it takes a 'lean' moment to get them to work properly again... I still think it's the fuel pump assembly though, each trip across town is getting worse. (as the tank empties I think)

Fairly simple to confirm or rule this out.

A fuel pressure gauge will tell the tale.
 

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You might want to check for a vacuum leak on the vac. line to the FP reg.

HTH
Willie
 

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Discussion Starter #10 (Edited)
You might want to check for a vacuum leak on the vac. line to the FP reg.

HTH
Willie
Adding this to my weekend check list.
Willie - Do you think this sounds like a fuel-systems issue like Freezin4 is suggesting?


A thing I have forgotten to post, is the engine code, it don't even turn the light on though. (It's there sometimes, but the light doesn't come on from it)
P1541 - (Pedal Position Sensor Double Error)

I really can't find anything on this error, and I don't see how this would cause the engine to run terribly wrong, so I haven't mentioned this, however, I'm throwing it out there.

PS: I was reading a article on "vaccum leaks" and "lean".
They are "lean" at an idle, and they get more "accurate" as the RPMs climb. eg: Long Term Trim @ idle would be +20, while at 2500 RPMs, it would be at +10... That's a sign of a vaccum leak. (EDIT: Is this logic correct? It sounds good to me.)
My car is showing close to a +0 to +3% Long Term Trim, at idle. I will test revving the engine parked to see if it changes however, I didn't try that.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
I was discussing with my father-in-law today. (he really knows nothing of cars) and he was like "Does the fuel cap work?" and I'm like "Yeah, I've never seen a car with so much pressure in the tank before. It works perfectly... wait... if there's massive pressure in the tank, allowing air to get in a crack in the fuel line... that would wreck all kinds of hell on the engine."

Just went for a cruise, I was going to "let the pressure out" halfway, however it was running so great, I decided not to. On the return trip, I was doing well over 50mpg (I didn't reset trip, but it seemed near 60 to me) (which I would love to see again... I'm closer to 45 for the past 100 miles!)

I pulled in the driveway, and pulled the gas cap, and there was no pressure in the gas tank. Nice cool day, and the car works great. When I was on the side of the road, and I pulled the gas-cap, it almost knocked me off my feet from the blast. (ok, it wasn't that bad... but there was a LOT of pressure in there)

More and more "discoveries" are pointing straight to that fuel pump assembly!
 

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I was discussing with my father-in-law today. (he really knows nothing of cars) and he was like "Does the fuel cap work?" and I'm like "Yeah, I've never seen a car with so much pressure in the tank before. It works perfectly... wait... if there's massive pressure in the tank, allowing air to get in a crack in the fuel line... that would wreck all kinds of hell on the engine."

With all due respect your fixation on air getting into a pressurized fuel line is wild goose chase.

The fuel pressure in an Insight is 43 psi. And the fuel pump is -inside- the gas tank.

A swoosh of air coming out of the tank when you take the cap off is not abnormal. Most tanks are sealed to build up a small amount of pressure now days. Maybe 2 psi. If you had 43 psi in the fuel tank you'd have more troubles than the car not running correctly [BOOM!]. If anything you'd have gas leaking -out- of a split fuel line.


Just went for a cruise, I was going to "let the pressure out" halfway, however it was running so great, I decided not to. On the return trip, I was doing well over 50mpg (I didn't reset trip, but it seemed near 60 to me) (which I would love to see again... I'm closer to 45 for the past 100 miles!)

I pulled in the driveway, and pulled the gas cap, and there was no pressure in the gas tank. Nice cool day, and the car works great. When I was on the side of the road, and I pulled the gas-cap, it almost knocked me off my feet from the blast. (ok, it wasn't that bad... but there was a LOT of pressure in there)

There is a "2-way" valve on many early Honda cars that controls the air and/or gas fumes going into and out of the fuel tank. If the Insight has a 2-way valve, it could be that is malfunctioning causing the air pressure in the tank to be out of wack.

More and more "discoveries" are pointing straight to that fuel pump assembly!
So measure the fuel pressure with a long enough hose so you can read the pressure while driving.

You might want to check the connections to the O2 sensors.

"P1541 - (Pedal Position Sensor Double Error)" I can't look up that code since the Google (colorful chart) is dead. But could that be a TPS sensor code? That would cause all sorts of strange problems if it was flaky.

"3. Sat for a real long time. Could easily have some chew marks on the fuel pump ***. just haven't checked yet." I doubt a rat would be able to get at the fuel pump inside the gas tank. They might chew the wires going to the pump though.

When was the CVT fluid changed last? Is the fluid level correct?
 

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I checked the chart, P1541: climate control unit signal circuit low voltage. Are you sure about the code # ? Found some throttle position codes, P0122 &0123, and lean/rich codes P0171 & 0172. How about blink codes ?
 

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Discussion Starter #14 (Edited)
I checked the chart, P1541: climate control unit signal circuit low voltage. Are you sure about the code # ? Found some throttle position codes, P0122 &0123, and lean/rich codes P0171 & 0172. How about blink codes ?
Yeah, my climate control unit is dead... No real surprise on that code honestly.

So did a test run yesterday, left the has cap loose... No codes, or lights.
So I'm about 80% sure there is all kinds of goodies wrong with the emissions side of that fuel tank!

So far, only 3 codes from the car total. Cat, pedal, and climate.
I'm not sure what a blink code is, so there is a chance I've missed that. *google and will edit back*

However, the car ran better I think, without the cap. (it was a short test so that might be a lie)

Going to do the run to my dad's shop with the cap off, and see if I have the same problem... Or not.

I *know* air is getting in my lines, how else do you run out of gas at half tank. (and it only took 8 gallons) car even sputtered for about 20 seconds. (hard sputtering) going to check fuel pressure on the weekend, either way.

I'm just starting to run out of funds in my allotment for the car!

My theory is there is closer to 5-10psi in the tank. I'm betting my fuel pressure will be low on Highway.

Also, it is possible for the fuel going across/along a Crack to create a cavitation bubble, which could possibly create a vacuum sucking air, and with the CVTs one way fuel system, the fuel won't flow smoothly, which could cause instant pressures much lower than seems, only for a millisecond though... But that's enough to inhale a bubble.

EDIT: will check for blink codes next time I see a light. However, other than my dash having a 2-3 second delay on what the IMA system is doing, I can't find fault in the IMA. (the meter on the dash does get all kinds of screwed up when you pull fuse 16 though... Just found its ability to cycle the battery meter properly. Lol
 

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Without the obdiic&c, I'm not sure an ordinary code reader picks up all the codes from a G1. From Mike Dabrowski's website, (Mikes tips), here's a link on how to read blink codes. Use AbCaRed00's spreadsheet then to interpret the code.
 

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Discussion Starter #16 (Edited)
Solved. After playing with it for most of the day.

Hooked a fuel pressure gauge into it, and it seems to like about 44psi. (just about perfect)

Used a clear hose between the connector and the gauge... No air.

Purged a LOT of gas. Never dropped below 22psi. (and the car ran like a champ at 22psi) *idle*

Never saw air. /me loses.

It was doing VASTLY better after the "high-flow" purge we did... put some HEET in it. (water-remover).

Car went from 45mpg, to 55mpg.

Gas tank was obviously full of water. (Not literally, but obviously enough to mess the car's computer up for hundreds of miles!)

Still having moments where it's not so happy... but no "oh crap" mode.
Idle is MUCH smoother, cruise speed is MUCH smoother, starting forward is much smoother... Still got that damn P0420 error... :(

I'm thinking if I was on "flat" I would be able to squeak around 60mpg. Still need the front end alignment, but the shop (thankfully, as I told them to do it) refused to do the alignment, due to the control arm wobbling all over the place.

I just put 8 gallons of non-ethanol fuel in it today, my fuel gauge is apparently broken, will investigate that, after I get the AC fixed. (from the AC, it goes to the control arms (which are very straight forward), then the fuel gauge (which isn't so straight forward))

So... The winner of solving my insight averaging 40mpg, while attempting to hyper-mile, is freezin4, with the "fresh fuel".

The car did go into "soso" mode, twice. But it never went near "oh crap something is really wrong", on the old tank after adding the "Heet". Going to get some more Heet for this tank, continue running my Injector cleaner additive for a few more tanks, and once I have a "serviceable" car, it's time to get dirty, and pull the top-end, and fix the oil leak (which is very minor), and any other issues on the top-end (valves/egr/etc).

PS: that was 55mpg, no-where near the back of a truck over ~30 hilly miles!
 

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So... The winner of solving my insight averaging 40mpg, while attempting to hyper-mile, is freezin4, with the "fresh fuel".

Well, what can I say.....even a broken clock is right twice a day.. :)

Congrats on the fix! Nice work.

As far as the fuel level gage, sometimes with a rear-ending of the bumper, the sending unit in the tank (float I think) gets hung up. So it may not be broken, but may need to get to it anyway.

Also, you mentioned that your car is loud due to the road noise, because of the missing insulation/carpeting. Temporarily, you could lay down a couple of folded moving blankets back there.
 

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Discussion Starter #18 (Edited)
I'm not sure if this is a thing or not, but on my earlier ~30 mile trip, I was about halfway, and all the way past the "steep hills" 10 miles.

I had averaged ~55mpg through the hilly-spot. I however JUST caught a light, and I know it as a LONG one. (usually 2-3 mintues) I don't have AC, or even fans, so I thought "turn it off, save some gas... I am trying to see how high I can get it!".

The next 8 miles of the trip, I averaged 52mpg. This is "VERY" flat (for me) without another stop. Needless to say, I was not the happiest camper thinking I had fixed my fuel issue(s).

And then poof, like magic, after about 5 minutes, the car leaned out like a champ. Last 2 miles of the trip, I brought the prior 52mpg, up to about 57mpg.

I'm really starting to get the hang of keeping the car "lean". But apparently, turning it off resets the computer, and makes it burn rich for a bit... so rather than idle for ~2 minutes, which would have made no relevant difference, I dropped a 30 mile ~60mpg trip, down to about 57mpg. :( That would have been my first "trip" 60 for more than 5 miles... (and that was mostly downhill, so I don't even count that)

At least that's how it felt to me. heh.

EDIT: Regarding the road noise, I just installed some 85watt RMS kickers. Let's just say, I can turn the radio up past 10% now, and still hear "music", rather than popping. (still a factory radio... that's a task for the next week-or-so, I have a nice kenwood sitting in a closet, waiting for a car)
 

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the background charging of the car can vary to a lot of degree. even if there is no green bars showing under charge there can still be quite alot of drag being generated by background charging of the battery.

if you want to find out if this is the case then simply wire up a clutch switch to jumper the connection, this will turn off all charging but it will also turn off all assist as well.

i can physically feel the drag applied when i turn off my switch as the regen kicks in, even without a single bar showing on my display. this also makes it that much more difficult to keep in lean burn. i'm up to about 65mpg now that i only use the battery in towns, on the highway it's just a wasted effort charging the battery, which isn't too bad with some generic cheapo off the store shelf tires for now(what it came with).

it's kinda ironic how many small things impact the car so much, most of them are directly related to what the ECM/BCM are attempting to do under your own nose. some of the largest impacts that i have made in mileage was in overriding what the car was trying to do on it's own programming. every day the car would react differently, i spent days checking things, cleaning the EGR, passages, wires, cat, O2 sensors, etc... most of the problem was in fact the battery and how the BCM was attempting to keep it happy instead of me.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Well after much replaced parts.

Plugs loved great. (will be replaced when I get the new ones next week)

Getting a EGR valve lift error sometimes now, however, I think this is possibly what was fouling the engine.

Haven't looked at the EGR plate yet. The car runs almost exactly the same (same major issue) with EGR simply unplugged.

After replacing the o2 sensor the car stopped... Working... Properly. Thus also I think it tells me what is happening. Short term trim, is everywhere. Spikes up and down, +20 then -20 about every second (at any and all throttle)

I think I one of my injectors is not injecting much fuel, which is causing an oscillation/resonance in the fuel system. (with the new o2 sensor, and I won't drive it as I think it could damage my transmission)

I think the injector was somehow fouling a cylinder, which explains everything. First new injector set was wrong size. New set should arrive hopefully Monday or Tuesday.
 
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