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Linsight Designer
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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
This thread is to discuss the 47 Ah Ford Motor Company lithium modules that will eventually be used in 8/10 kWh (48S/60S) LiBCM conversions:
Laptop accessory Gadget Electric blue Multimedia Laptop part


NOTE: These are not the only "FoMoCo" modules out there. Therefore, I will always refer to these modules as "47 Ah FoMoCo modules". Specifically, this thread is to discuss the 12S, 2.07 kWh, 47 Ah FoMoCo module (as shown above).

There is almost zero information available online for these modules, hence this thread.

As of this writing, this module is available for purchase on batteryhookup.com. At $250/module, this is an absolute bargain. IC.members that want the ultimate PHEV experience in a G1 insight should buy QTY5 modules now, before they run out of stock.

...

Edit:
This thread is now also to discuss "5 Ah G3 Insight" cells, too.

FYI: We previously thought these were "EHW5" cells, but they are NOT (thanks @Battery Buyer ). So for now we're just calling them "5 Ah G3 Insight" cells/modules. For brevity, I propose calling them "5AhG3" cells. I'm up for a better abbreviated name if anyone comes up with one.

You can find my official statement on the matter here. Please refer others to this link whenever "EHW5/5AhG3 Confusion" comes up.

...

You can find all long term test data I've collect here:
 

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Linsight Designer
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Discussion Starter · #2 · (Edited)
First up, let's talk safety.

These modules are extremely energy dense. Let's compare them to the EHW5 module that's already used with LiBCM:

Updated per feedback from @Recovering_Gasaholic . Thanks for keeping me honest!
EHW5 (18S)47 Ah FoMoCo (12S)
Length/Width/Height (mm)298.5 x 130.2 x 108.0355 x 152 x 108
Volume (L)4.25.8
mass (kg)5.711.9
Ah (nominal)547
Wh/kg58175
Wh/L79360

As you can see, the 47 Ah FoMoCo module stores ~3x more energy per kilogram (mass), and ~4.5x more energy per liter (volume). That's a HUGE increase...
...but it comes at a tradeoff: the 47 Ah FoMoCo cells have very little mechanical protection from the elements. Whereas the EHW5 cells are protected by a huge air gap on all sides, as well as a rigid folded metal outer shell, the 47 Ah FoMoCo cells have essentially zero protection, and so are exposed to whatever they come into contact with.

Therefore, these 47 Ah FoMoCo modules are vulnerable to shipping damage. Once they're installed in a (to be designed) aluminum IMA tray, they will be protected from the elements, but until they are mounted in the IMA bay, they are easily damaged by any external impact.

@Recovering_Gasaholic kindly donated one such damaged module, which has a few cuts in the black outer sleeving, as well as a few dents in the actual cell structure. If you're unfamiliar with lithium cell chemistries, know that exposing a fully charged cell to atmospheric oxygen will cause a fire... so then the first order of business is to see how much damage these modules can take before they become unsafe.

So the first order of business is to determine if cuts that perforate the outer black housing can lead to a fire. This will ultimately depend on whether the outer (metal) housing is a thin-walled pouch or a thick-walled prismatic housing. To safely test this, I will discharge one of the damaged cells, remove the black outer jacket, then pierce and remove the outer jacket, so that I can measure the wall thickness. This is obviously a destructive test.

<TODO> Perform above test.
 

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Lmao I'm watching the video you just uploaded(sad days, it's only 360p)and you really are a mad scientist you know that...
 
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Linsight Designer
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Discussion Starter · #4 · (Edited)
The next test I'm going to perform is a long term "high normal" charge/discharge test, so we can estimate the number of charge/discharge cycles this cell can deliver. My plan is to:
-charge the module at 75 amps, which is the maximum regen current allowed by the G1 MCM with the +40% current hack installed.
-charge the module up to 4.00 volts (at 75 amps). There will be no current taper-down; the charge cycle will end immediately when the cell reaches 4.00 volts.
-Each charge cycle should take ~38 minutes.
-discharge the module with a 35 mOhm passive load, which is 94 amps when the cell is empty and 111 amps when the cell is full.
-discharge the module down to 3.35 volts. There will be no current taper-down; the discharge cycle will end immediately when the cell reaches 3.35 volts.
-Each discharge cycle should take ~30 minutes.

-The current and voltage will be logged every five seconds.
-At the end of each test, the total Ah will be calculated, so that we can establish a long term trend.
-This test should complete ~21 charge/discharge cycles per day.
-I will repeat this test on three cells, each at a different ambient temperature (~0 degC, ~30 degC, ~50 degC).

This test will consume ~3 kWh/day. I thought about ways to harvest the test energy (rather than just converting it into heat). One thought was to test QTY6 cells in series, and then discharge into a power inverter (that could then power electronics in the house, etc). Unfortunately it's much easier to just dump the waste heat and then get new energy from the power grid. Fortunately, power in Chattanooga is almost entirely "green" (nuclear, solar, wind), and also power is quite cheap ($0.12/kWh). So this test will cost ~$11/month to run, and will 'waste' 72 kWh/month. That's the energy equivalent to ~2.1 gallons of gas, or ~8.4 gallons of gas burned in a 25% efficient ICE. I can live with that.

...

The discharge circuit will be a long length of 4 AWG wire.
The charge circuit will be a Lambda Gen 20-165 power supply.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Lmao I'm watching the video you just uploaded(sad days, it's only 360p)and you really are a mad scientist you know that...
Yeah until Youtube is done processing the HD version, only 360p is available. I upload my videos in 1080p60... nobody needs to see what I'm doing in 4k ;).
 

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There is almost zero information available online for these modules, hence this thread.
I was talking with one of the guys over on diyelectriccar couple days ago and complaining about lack of data. He suggested that that since the chemistry was the same the Samsung data on their 94Ahr cell would be essentially the same. That sounded right to me. Anyway, here is a link:


*corrected
 
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As of this writing, this module is available for purchase on batteryhookup.com. At $250/module, this is an absolute bargain. IC.members that want the ultimate PHEV experience in a G1 insight should buy QTY5 modules now, before they run out of stock.
I qualify as a member of that demographic. Mudder do you expect there to be additonal design challanges to useing the 47 Ah FoMoCo (12S) cells compared to the established and tested EHW5 (18S). I am prepared to buy 5 modules but the DIY LiBCM page only has instructions regarding the EHW5 modules. Linsight - Batteries.

Is it safe to assume that the 47 Ah FoMoCo (12S) cells will be a supported cell for LiBCM project? I realise it will take some time for the testing and documentation to cover the details.
 

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These modules are extremely energy dense. Let's compare them to the EHW5 module that's already used with LiBCM:

EHW5 (18S)47 Ah FoMoCo (12S)
Length/Width/Height (mm)298.5 x 130.2 x 108.0355 x 152 x 108
Volume (L)4.25.8
mass (kg)5.711.9
kWh (nominal)547
kWh/kg0.883.95
kWh/L1.197.97
It looks like you have kilowatt hours when you mean amp hours. The numbers below are a little closer but really this is just the nominal voltage times the amperage.

To be more accurate, we should be comparing the usable range. Based on just the nominal voltage and capacity, it looks like the 47AH FoMoCo is about 3.1x times as energy dense.


EHW5 (18S)47 Ah FoMoCo (12S)
Length/Width/Height (mm)298.5 x 130.2 x 108.0355 x 152 x 108
Volume (L)4.25.8
mass (kg)5.711.9
Amp Hours5ah47ah
Volts 64.8v (3.6v nominal x 18)44.4v
kWh (nominal)0.3242.0868
kWh/kg0.056842105260.17536134453
kWh/L0.077142857140.35979310344

The nominal voltages per cell are very close and vary based on the source (either 3.6 or 3.7 volts).

At the end of the day you add 100lbs for a 60S FoMoCo vs Ehw5 and you get 9.4x the capacity (based on the same nominal voltage).

The EHW5 modules are good for many more cycles. 50,000 vs 3,200 (if the lifespan is the same as the 94ah linked above). Of course you would charge and discharge the bigger pack fewer times. Still, if you were to multiply the lifespan by the extra capacity you would be comparing 30,000 with 50,000, giving the EHW5 the advantage

3200 x 9.4 =30080
 
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Linsight Designer
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Discussion Starter · #12 · (Edited)
I qualify as a member of that demographic. Mudder do you expect there to be additonal design challanges to useing the 47 Ah FoMoCo (12S) cells compared to the established and tested EHW5 (18S). I am prepared to buy 5 modules but the DIY LiBCM page only has instructions regarding the EHW5 modules. Linsight - Batteries.

Is it safe to assume that the 47 Ah FoMoCo (12S) cells will be a supported cell for LiBCM project? I realise it will take some time for the testing and documentation to cover the details.
I am 100% committed to supported the 47 Ah FoMoCo modules. The only question is whether it'll be 48S or 60S... which only hinges on whether QTY5 modules will safely fit in the OEM IMA bay (QTY4 100% will fit).

The 47 Ah FoMoCo DIY LiBCM Kit will require more work to convert, but I will shoot the same type of instructional videos... it'll take longer to convert, but it won't be any more complicated.

...

It looks like you have kilowatt hours when you mean amp hours.
You're correct... I've updated my post... I certainly messed up the units (and the number of cells).

At the end of the day you add 100lbs for a 60S FoMoCo vs Ehw5 and you get 9.4x the capacity (based on the same nominal voltage).
A 60S FoMoCo pack actually only weighs 68 pounds more than a 60S EHW5 pack.

The EHW5 modules are good for many more cycles. 50,000 vs 3,200 (if the lifespan is the same as the 94ah linked above). Of course you would charge and discharge the bigger pack fewer times.
I absolutely agree: the EHW5 modules are incredible and I totally expect that most people will use them rather than the 47 Ah FoMoCo modules. I'll have EHW5 modules in one car and 47 Ah FoMoCos in the other... that way I can support both setups, and also see which one I prefer more long term.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
I was talking with one of the guys over on diyelectriccar couple days ago and complaining about lack of data. He suggested that that since the chemistry was the same the Samsung data on their 94Ahr cell would be essentially the same. That sounded right to me. Anyway, here is a link:


*corrected
I doubt this is the same module type... it's only rated to charge/discharge at 31 amps, which is much too low for any electric/hybrid vehicle.

I guess I should perform a test where I continuously charge/discharge the modules at the full rated in-use G1 currents (75 amps regen, 140 amps assist)... see how many cycles they last. That'll let us know for sure. I feel sorry for the module @Recovering_Gasaholic donated to the cause... it's going to have a rough life just as soon as the 600 amp MOSFET I ordered shows up ;).
 

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I doubt this is the same module type... it's only rated to charge/discharge at 31 amps, which is much too low for any electric/hybrid vehicle.

I guess I should perform a test where I continuously charge/discharge the modules at the full rated in-use G1 currents (75 amps regen, 140 amps assist)... see how many cycles they last. That'll let us know for sure. I feel sorry for the module @Recovering_Gasaholic donated to the cause... it's going to have a rough life just as soon as the 600 amp MOSFET I ordered shows up ;).
Time to build a pool heater... lol. this is an interesting development I'm going to hold off untill I can acutally get a G1 though... 1 person kept his car, 2 more haven't gotten replies yet.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
If QTY5 modules will safely fit inside the IMA bay, then LiBCM might work with QTY5 modules (60S).
Regardless, LiBCM will definitely work with QTY4 modules (48S).

So buy QTY4 if you're pinching pennies, and QTY5 if you want to push it to the limit.

...

Video update:
 

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In the table above I'm blown away by the projected 50,000 vs 3,200 cycle life estimate. I realize there different battery chemistry's but the FoMoCo cell was intended for EV useage. I know cars are not built like they used to be but an ev pack. Such a low cycle count makes one of the cars most expensive parts boarder line disposable. I'm interested to see the cycle durability test results.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 · (Edited)
For a large format battery, 3200 cycles probably won't occur prior to age-related cell failure. Think about how much longer it takes to discharge a 10 kWh pack, versus a 1 kWh pack. For a small battery, you might run through ten or more cycles in a single trip, whereas with a large battery you're unlikely to go through even one cycle. For example, if you continuously ran full assist (12 kW), it would take about 45 minutes to fully discharge the pack. If you ALWAYS drove with full assist (12 kW), you'd get 2400 hours of full assist before the pack "died" (where "died" means the pack only contains 80% of its initial storage capacity). After 2400 hours of full assist, you'd likely have driven at least 140,000 miles. But of course, we don't do full assist everywhere all the time... so 3200 cycles is probably a 500,000+ mile battery... which means it will probably die from old age first.

Also, I doubt the EHW5 modules actually last 50,000 cycles under the loads placed on them by the G1 insight. Panasonic's 50,000 cycle claim is based on a 40 amp continuous charge/discharge cycle, whereas the G1 insight pulls substantially more current, which will considerably reduce overall cycle life. This is particularly applicable due to the wild charge/discharge currents (15.0C/28.0C) placed on the 5 Ah EHW5 module, whereas the charge/discharge currents (1.6C/3.0C) are much lower with the 47 Ah modules.

Maybe the EHW5s will last 25,000 cycles (wild guess)... one way to find out is to throw one on the long term tester and see what happens.
 
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