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I'm working with a team on a project in Holland.

Basically it is a new vehicle built from scratch fitted with a 5.8L V12 Ferrari engine from a 612 Scaglietti. The projected power with modified exhaust is 570hp + 13hp from the IMA LOL

The interest for us it has a HCH1 Civic IMA Motor fitted as a starter and assist unit in between the engine and gearbox.

The rotor has been modified and a plethora of new parts have been designed and accurately made to allow the IMA motor to fit as if in a Civic.

This is one of the reasons I have been working on controlling the IMA motor without reference to the Civic ECM. This project uses a custom ECM for the IC engine which will talk to my little interface box, and then in turn the MCM which will drive the IMA and manage the battery as it does now.

Anyway some photos of the work so far to wet your appetite.
 

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Fascinating project. Beautiful machine work. Can't actually figure out the hub pieces from the picture, but assume that they both adapt the mechanical pieces to the Insight rotor and strengthen it.

One quick question, benefiting another discussion. Is the hub material of the Insight rotor aluminum or other?
 

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I'm working with a team on a project in Holland.

Basically it is a new vehicle built from scratch fitted with a 5.8L V12 Ferrari engine from a 612 Scaglietti. The projected power with modified exhaust is 570hp + 13hp from the IMA LOL
So what's the point of adding such a piddlingly small amount of electric power?
 

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What a cool project to be involved in!

Sam
 

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Point is for it to act as a starter generator and be able to maneuver/propel the vehicle at low speed.
Something to do with it the qualifying as a hybrid with advantages for tax etc in Holland.

I believe the rotor is a machined steel casting. I don't know what they have done too strengthen it..

Hope it is over engineered by Honda by a factor of about 10!!! LOL..
 

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Maybe they could make use of your and Hugh-Falls research on the tandem motor/generator.
 

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Sounds great. Having IMA means to have a lighter flywheel with that IMA "flywheel emulation".

What output would you expect from the IMA motor when it was fed by a bunch of LiPo or LiFePo batteries?
 

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Thanks guys.

Yes, the initial idea is tax related. The difference in CO2 tax when registering the car is about 60,000 euro, giving me a fair bit of budget to still come out on top when doing this. Plus it is a very cool engineering challenge, which certainly is part of the whole reason for doing this project in the first place.

The Civic rotor is machined steel, and we are not strenghtening it as it does indeed seem over-engineered by a factor of 10.

If you look at engine torque of the V12 engine and make that a bit more intuitive, the whole thing isn't so bad: 580 Nm engine torque means that if the rotor can withstand my 58 kg girlfriend putting her full weight at the end of a 1 meter rod that is attached to the rotor and it doesn't break, then it is strong enough. Or alternatively, if I put my 100 kg weight at the end of a 58 cm rod. The rotor should be plenty strong for that. And if not, we'll find out soon enough :-|

For those interested in some pics: www.facebook.com/Minottocars

Cheers,

Hans
 

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Civic rotor fasteners

Hans: The Civic rotor steel casting probably is adequate enough to transmit the torque but its FASTENERS probably are not. My preference would have been to design an adequate steel spacer/coupling to span between engine and transmission. The inside of the Civic rotor would be machined away so that what remained would be a rim carrying the magnets which would be slipped over the spacer/coupling. It would be fastened with an appropriate industrial adhesive and pinned.

Machining the rotor does present a problem, however, if a "keeper" is used to confine the magnetic field it can be done. Mike Dabrowski has suggested the use of sufficient layers of steel shim stock wound on the O.D. of the rotor or if you wish, a custom 'keeper" could be made.
 

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Hans: The Civic rotor steel casting probably is adequate enough to transmit the torque but its FASTENERS probably are not. My preference would have been to design an adequate steel spacer/coupling to span between engine and transmission. The inside of the Civic rotor would be machined away so that what remained would be a rim carrying the magnets which would be slipped over the spacer/coupling. It would be fastened with an appropriate industrial adhesive and pinned.

Machining the rotor does present a problem, however, if a "keeper" is used to confine the magnetic field it can be done. Mike Dabrowski has suggested the use of sufficient layers of steel shim stock wound on the O.D. of the rotor or if you wish, a custom 'keeper" could be made.
Thanks for your insights Hugh.

With the fasteners, you mean the bolts?

Unless my math is completely off, I remember calculating a shear stress of around 45N per mm2 for the M12 bolts in the center, and even less for the M10 bolts on the flywheel side. Even for a mere 8.8 bolt that is peanuts, as these are rated at 640N/mm2. Regardless, we went with 12.9 bolts, which are rated at 1080N/mm2.

Let's see:
680 Nm engine torque
31 mm radius of the 6 center bolts, meaning 0.031 meter
So 680/0.031 = 21,935 Newton acting on the bolts

Now let's look at the bolts:
They are M12, meaning they are 12 mm diameter, and have 10.2 mm nominal diameter, taking the threads into account.
Divide by two and you'll have 5.1mm nominal radius
Pi * 5.1^2 = 82 sq mm surface
We have 6 bolts, so 6*82 = 490 total sq mm

So, we have 21,935 Newton to be held back by using 490 square mm of bolt. This translates to 21,935/490 = 45 N/mm2

And we have 1080 N/mm2 to our disposal, so a safety factor of 24.

So unless my thinking is entirely wrong, and much larger peak stresses are imposed on the bolts than the actual rated torque value (which of course is not unimaginable) I'm not worried too much about the bolts.

Bearing in mind that the engine is a 6 liter V12, the explosion of each cylinder really isn't more than that of a 2 liter 4 cylinder. So here too, I am not feeling uncomfortable.

Or am I missing something?
 

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Dynamic system

Hans: Your calculations are based on STATIC loads. When you pop the clutch, the loads imposed in that dynamic condition are considerably higher. In addition, you may want to design for RIGIDITY and SIMPLICITY as well.
 

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In the US people register exotic cars in Montana to avoid sales tax in registration fees.

Yes, the initial idea is tax related. The difference in CO2 tax when registering the car is about 60,000 euro, giving me a fair bit of budget to still come out on top when doing this. Plus it is a very cool engineering challenge, which certainly is part of the whole reason for doing this project in the first place.
 

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Hans: Your calculations are based on STATIC loads. When you pop the clutch, the loads imposed in that dynamic condition are considerably higher. In addition, you may want to design for RIGIDITY and SIMPLICITY as well.
True, but it is good to know that statically, there is this huge margin.

Dynamically, the engine pretty much behaves like a 2 liter 4 cylinder, at three times the frequency.

Simplicity suggests simply bolting on the rotor as-is, rather than machining away the center :)

And for reference: Ferrari uses 8 M10 bolts in the same bolt diameter as the 6 M12 bolts that Honda has. That's 454 mm2 of surface on the Ferrari, against 490 mm2 on the Honda.

The proof is in the pudding, but there are other areas on the car that have a larger portion of my worries...

Thanks for your insights though.
 
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