[Mike Dabrowski 2000]

My nephew Troy a Worcester Polytechnic engineering student had an interesting suggestion after learning all about MIMA over the weekend.
Troy suggested that I should be up front with Honda and send them a kit for evaluation, after we have some more experience.
A letter describing how this mod has made their MPG leading car even more efficient, and a request for their approval for the kit installation without warranty issues, possibly getting them to provide the connectors to make it a plug in device. With the media coverage that the tour de sol experience has brought.(more in the works) and some hard data as to the improved mileage without battery issues that we will gather as you start using MIMA, Honda may go for it to further their "GREEN" image, and if the plug in MIMA system can be worked out with their help, they could offer installation through their dealers??
It is a looooong shot but would do wonders for the average MPG of the Insight fleet, since the worry of warranty issues would be eliminated.
What are the chances 0-1%?
:roll:

 

[bfivelover]

I think your 0-1% may be a tad optimistic, especially the "installation through their dealers" part. I hope I'm wrong though.

 

[Mike Dabrowski 2000]

You are probably right. Honda had a fuel cell car just one aisle down from where I was, and the guy did come over several times to see my MIMA equipped Insight and took some of the literature?
We will have to sweep the tour de sol Hybrid rally next year or this summer to have them take us seriously.

 

[Rick]

I personally doubt they'd want to end up distributing it and having dealers install it, but having manufacturers go for aftermarket stuff like that isn't totally out of the question. SEMA (special equipment manufacturers association) was established just for that purpose. They provide a median to work with auto manufacturers and aftermarket accessory makers. It might be worth presuing through that channel.

[Added one more thought]

The main issue I see here is MIMA would be beyond the scope of control the average consumer would come to expect. Most people just want to get in and have a transparent driving experience. Of course there are the few of us who would like to have manual control and could understand it. But you wouldn't see it as standard equipment any time soon. I mean heck, auto makers would like to make more of their controls by wire in the form of something like a joy stick, we've seen concepts of this for years, but everyone is used to the steering wheel and pedals and humans don't like change.

 

[Mike Dabrowski 2000]

Rick
"The main issue I see here is MIMA would be beyond the scope of control the average consumer would come to expect. Most people just want to get in and have a transparent driving experience. "
Discription of throttle based control concept: from other thread.
Lets say you are going along on the highway, and come to a hill. You step down a little on the gas. The MIMA_C detects this, and freezes the initial position in temporary memory. It saves this value until you again stop moving the throttle. The difference between the starting point and end point of the motion, is the assist base value. To give a better idea, the Micro has a 10 bit A/D converter. The 0.4 - 5V voltage change produced by the full throttle motion is a number from say 48-1024 within the micro. The reason it is not zero is because the engine needs to idle. Move a little, and the number change may be 20. I have not measured carefully, but 20 out of 1024 would probably barely make the ICE begin to drop out of lean burn.
The MIMA has a 2 axis joystick. The left right action and the central switch will be used to input a multiplication factor. Move the stick right of center, .(more aggressive) press the central switch to store the value, and you have entered a multiplication factor. This factor multiplies the throttle position change, start to stop, to come up with the 0-100% assist value Move it to the left and press the central switch, and you divide the throttle position change to generate the( less aggressive) assist control signal. I will try to duplicate the present assist to throttle action feel when the multiply factor is at the joystick center. The Micro will store this value in the internal flash memory and will remember it the next time you turn it on. To stop the assist, you quickly back the throttle off and then return to the same position. Now you are back on ICE power alone.
Regen will work the same way in reverse, as you back off the throttle, and hold a new higher position, the change would turn on regen in proportion to the multiply factor. The max assist and max regen values will always be limited by the internal MCM and MPI safety circuits, so we should be safe.
It is basically going to be just like the standard system, but you can adjust how quickly the electric comes on and thr regen as well.
I was thinking of JC Whitney, don't they sell after market stuff?

 

[james]

"...everyone is used to the steering wheel and pedals and humans don't like change."

I don't think it's a matter of not liking change, but more of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". Drive-by-wire doesn't seem to offer any advantages over the current system, and a lot of disadvantages: more complexity/cost, less road feel, not to mention what happens when a fuse blows halfway down that winding mountain road...

As for getting Honda interested, it's worth a try. I don't know if you'd have much chance of getting anything official out of them, but I'd be surprised if some of their engineers aren't already watching. You have to remember that Honda designed the system the way it is in order to make it transparent to the lowest common denominator of driver, and they'd have to change that policy.

 

[highwater]

James wrote:

You have to remember that Honda designed the system the way it is in order to make it transparent to the lowest common denominator of driver,........

Exactly: thus we have the Insight as issued; However, they HAD to know that this vehicle was capable of what MIMA will contibute to FE. They HAD to know. Surely one of their engineers while sitting at the round table having socky while discussing this most marvilous peice of hardware, said Hey WHAT IF WE.......They HAD to know. But still my Insight is missing a switch :evil:

Mike:
Perhaps there could be some driver qualifications before installation of the factory option.
If I want to race monster trucks I have to prove to the diciplining authorities that I can handle all that power before they let me in front of the crowd.
If i want to do 1/4 mile IHRA I must satisfy their requirements.
If I want a factory MIMA option I must prove my ability.
Do you see what I'm saying.

I would certainly like to see you chage their minds Mike.
Perhaps a couple hand fulls of MIMA Insights at next years Tour de Sol cleaning the proverbeal house will ring their doorbell.

Did I mention.......... They HAD to know, they just HAD to.

 

[joecvt]

The Honda engineers probably DO have a prototype Insight with
electric only. However, they probably have a larger battery pack
already installed and have a different ECM programmed to run in
electric mode only until a certain MPG (just like the Prius) They
just step on the "acceleration pedal" (not the gas pedal anymore)
and zoom....This option (if there was one) could be dealer installed
since it was proven by Honda to be SAFE. And that it the key word
here folks. Honda would never go for anything unconventually that
manaully accelerates the car. I can imagine the lawsuits now...
"I don't know what happend, I was sitting there and I push a button,
and the car moved forward into traffic!" or "Officer, this guy slowed
down so quickly in front of me...his brake lights didn't even come on!"
These might be weird quotes but in our lawyer happy lawsuit times,
I could see someone in the future trying to sue Honda for this device
if it is dealer installed. Don't get me wrong, this does not mean that
it is a bad product to own and use, I plan on getting on myself, but
as the question was posed, I don't think there is any chance that
Honda would approve of this device even though you probably will
get more MPGs out of it.

For safety reasons, I think a future mod would include a "brake light
on" condition if you exceed a certain number in charging amps.

JoeCVT - Just your average CVT owner

 

[Mike Dabrowski 2000]

Just by the modular nature of the Insights design, I would bet that they were driving the prototype IMA with the electric under the drivers control for quite some time as a means of setting the assist and regen activation points.
Then they needed to mix that control with the gas, and allow that control through the throttle control. IMHO,, after driving the thing with MIMAfor a month or so, I can say that they went a little to far in the gas direction, and did not trust us with battery charge management. The difference between the 5 speed manual and the CVT is a good example of how the mix is so important. The throttle based MIMA variable aggressiveness IMA control is just a shift of the operating point for IMA activation, and should become transparent for the people that do not want to play with the addictive little joystick. Once you try it, you will not want to go back to the regular IMA.
The MIMA_C will have amaster on off switch, and fuse, and will default to normal IMA if the switch is turned off or the fuse blows.
This is one mod that you cannot fully appreciate until you try it, although some of you seem to have a good mental model going. :wink:

 

[Mike Dabrowski 2000]

The brake light thing has been mentioned several times, and by Nemystic who has the only other working MIMA (Yves we are waiting for you).
You all have a valid point, and have convinced me that it should be included.
I have not read through the Corey's max regen sw thread, (will do it later) can someone sumarize it for me. How much current the switch must handle to turn on the brake light? where to tap into the circuit?
I can add a simple two pin connector to the MIMA_C board. Good thing I have not firmed it up yet. :wink:

 

[Mike Dabrowski 2000]

A careful read of Corey's brake mod thread , and a look at the electrical manual show that the brake sw is a high side switch, and therefore more difficult to control with the simple circuit I had in mind. I also need to watch the regen ammeter and see what the brake sw does to regen current when MIMA is active. I believe it does nothing, and that regen is strictly under the MIMA joystick control. I also want to see what happens when the anti lock brakes are active in the MIMA controlled regen mode, will the regen stop, or continue?

I will do some more research into this, and hope a solution can be included in the MIMA_C first release.

 

[nemystic]

Mike,

I'm glad to hear about the brake light addition to the MIMA_C.

I may be wrong, but I believe that stepping on the brake pedal with the MIMA activated and in forced regen mode may increase the regen indicator (green bars), but not the actual current. When using the forced regen feature to approach an intersection, if there's another vehicle behind me, I always touch the brake pedal to turn on the brake lights.

With MIMA activated, I haven't yet observed a condition where the regen disengaged following an ABS event.

This should be easy to check out on the infamous covered bridge (in my home town), the road surface of which could be compared to that of the moon. With 50 psi in the tires, Sputnik does an award winning hip-hop performance there at least twice a day. 8)

 

[meow77]

Hey I think you should worry about perfecting the thing first and selling it to people on this list so the insighters are impressed with it first before you think of appealing to Honda...

 

[Mike Dabrowski 2000]

meow77
That is the plan, but this thread is exposing the things that people feel would increase the likely hood of that approval, and therefore is valuable feedback as to how to finish it.

 

[Calpod]

Meow77 wrote:

Hey I think you should worry about perfecting the thing first and selling it to people on this list so the insighters are impressed with it first before you think of appealing to Honda

Mike, if you need any volunteers to test it count me in.
if the drive up there was less than 1000 miles I would be there to install it.

 

[Mike Dabrowski 2000]

Calpod has suggested that a separate amber lighted CHARGING sign may be better than activating the brake light. It could be just below the regular upper brake light, in the lower hatch window.This would simplify the wiring as I would not need to touch any of the brake circuits, and would increase the awareness of the general public as to how the batteries actually get charged, and may stop people from asking if you have to plug it in. I like the approach, what do you think? CHARGING printed on an inkjet transparancy backlit with amber superbright leds could look nice.

 

[LoNOx 1]

In Illinois, it is illegal to have any accessory light operating in the windows or
or outside the vehicle while it is traveling.
A state trooper informed me that factory driving lights are not legal to operate in Illinois.

 

[Mike Dabrowski 2000]

Good point, I guess that my rear MPG LCD screen would be considered a non factory light as well. Bummer. Will go back to the brake light approach.

 

[Calpod]

Good point LoNOx 1, I wonder how they handle SUV's with the dvd's on while theyre driving, even if they're in the back it's still visible to other vehicles, I will find out how it is here in California.

Mike, how about an option for those whose state may allow it.

 

[Mike Dabrowski 2000]

I have redone the MIMA_C board and have added a connector that can do either. The charge light will be simply the backlight leds and current limiting resistors, the brake lights will need a small external relay that the MIMA board will control. The tail lights take too much power for my little board to handle, and it a high side switch.

[moderator edit to prevent un necessary thread "bump" up the list]

For those interested in the MIMA project or those still wondering what it is the threads have become too fragmented for the developer to maintain and he has requested that his other MIMA threads be locked.

Please understand that any further suggestions for design changes will not be honored since the process is too far along. However, since its *opertation* can be easily modded in software such limited opinions will be welcome.

A few of the old threads that will most likely answer all your questions are here:

Hybrid controls and the MIMA project
http://www.insightcentral.net/forum/vie ... php?t=2471

Mima Statue Update
http://www.insightcentral.net/forum/vie ... php?t=3176

MIMA L works in a CVT (automatic circuitry with foot pedal)
http://www.insightcentral.net/forum/vie ... php?t=3233
(Moderators note: the newest version of MIMA is CVT compatible)

MIMA Display and Joystick Housings
http://www.insightcentral.net/forum/vie ... php?t=3353

The developers site is here:

http://pages.cthome.net/genesisone/index.htm

Its a complex topic and modification. And one that should be carefully reviewed if your deciding on purchase. The purchase thread is here:

http://www.insightcentral.net/forum/vie ... 9&start=15


The subject is still open for discussion at the developers selected for consolidation thread here:

http://www.insightcentral.net/forum/vie ... php?t=3357

Locking other threads. Future MIMA threads will be locked and follow-up's directed to the thread above.

[end]