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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Hi,

A123 20Ah Quebec Group buy(Canada) cells ARRIVED 24.57$/cell
A123 20Ah Quebec Group buy(Canada) cells ARRIVED 24.57$/cell

Our group buy for the Quebec province in Canada finally succeeded.

We just received our 175 pounds of A123 made in USA cells from ShenZhen Victpower Technology Co.,Ltd

We ordered from Victpower because it was one of the two supplier that Jack Rikard has bought from and was guinea pig and also have tested the cells with positive convincing results. The second supplier was OSN Power

Price come to around 25$ each cells with customs and shipping included.

I will test them, and will post the results.

Re: A123 20Ah Quebec Group buy(Canada) cells ARRIVED 24.57$/

UPDATE.. as promised:

I went to J-L house to test al the 180 cells with him.

I have to say that i'm impressed by the packing they had. All cells individually wraped with bullble and than placed in the white plastic holder and than fitted in a cardboed box with 7 layer of 2 cells per white plastic layer.

-100% of cells had no real damage over all 180 cells. only some cells had some little trace of not punctured traces.. just embossed a little but not enough to consider

-all cells are MADE IN USD printed on them and also have a sticker on the negative tab. That sticker can be removed easy and the residual gum can be removed with aceton

-All tab are 28mm long :D

- I was only able to test the first 25 cells due to my poor RI tester that blown for unknow reason :roll: The average AC impedense was 1.6 miliohm on the first 25 cells.

- The average voltage of cells was 3.293.. well 90% of the cells was 3.293 ( all measured at 16.1 degree C in the garage after cels sit for at least 72h)
( like 6% of the cells was at 3.294 or 3.292 and 4% was at 3.304V )

- Cells are all i good flat shape... no real bend like had already had reported

our friend Jack Rikard reported having measured 18-19Ah at high current... so i need to figure that myself on our received batch!

You're totally right about group buys for these A123 pouches, not really necessary. I just got a quote for $18.30 per pouch for 48 of them plus $240 shipping. That comes to $23.30 per pouch. Of course any duty fees is not factored in that price. But I bet they wouldn't end up being much more than $25 each. Ordering 500 pouches only brings the price down by $0.90 a pouch to $17.40.
What do you mean by "finally succeeded"?

How long did it take? Any problems or delays?
I meant that due to the big doubt many had about buying these cells, i can say that the short delay to get them, the price we got them and the results from now, i can conclude that it's a succes.

delay was short.. around one week to get them to our door after payment.
 

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Discussion Starter #2 (Edited)
Hi,

Picture and explanation of "stickers" referred to earlier.

I also think it [duty] might depend on the Ah for the price range of duty and broker fee

Our cells have an added sticker showing 3.7V 900mAh on both cells of the top of each box...

I think this help for the duty and broker fee :wink:
 

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You can see the tabs 3 messages above yours. Is that full size?
 

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Like many others, I'm thinking of going this route at some point.

Can someone elaborate on just how this Chinese company comes by these American made A123 cells? Sounds like they are "recovered" from some original use. So they have a history.

Secondly, can someone furnish a link to some write-up where initial receiving QC is discussed? What is the process? I don't think one would want to go to all the trouble of building up a pack, just to discover there was one or two bad pouches.
 

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There is lots of speculation and discussion on endless-sphere.com about the source of the cells. There are factories in China Manufacturing cells for A123.

Initial receiving? Do you mean when they arrive at my shop from China?
 

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Initial receiving? Do you mean when they arrive at my shop from China?
No you answered as best you probably can at the moment. I meant that with the Chinese you are going to want to exercise 50-100% quality control of the delivered pouches during "initial receiving" at your shop. Anything less over the entire ordering span is taking a big risk with your customer's money.

The Chinese are not trust worthy. The outright theft of intellectual property alone attests to this fact. Perhaps these cells are "functional" rejects. Perhaps they won't have normal longevity. Perhaps the cells have already failed their own QC efforts.

Pardon my paranoia, but it isn't really paranoid if they are really out to cheat you;)
 

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The Chinese are not trust worthy. The outright theft of intellectual property alone attests to this fact.
I think it is just people ... there are plenty of people in anywhere in the world that will steal intellectual property if they can... so for me it is just a general caution anytime you deal with a vendor / person you don't know a good track record for.

Perhaps these cells are "functional" rejects. Perhaps they won't have normal longevity. Perhaps the cells have already failed their own QC efforts.
We don't Know ... perhaps any of those things ... or perhaps there is a town / providence / or street in China somewhere called usa ... I know there is one in Japan ... You can get things made in usa Japan , stamped made in usa ... the usa just does not mean United States of America.

Maybe this is where A123 the company has them made ... I recall reading that A123 as a company has been working on a China manufacturing facility sense 2009... Link

And if the individual A123 A123 Batteries are assembled in the U.S.A. ... it might be like some of the 'domestic' cars ... GM under the Pontiac brand sold a car model 'G8' that was only about ~5% domestic the other ~95% of the vehicle was parts bought and put together in other countries ... but I bet a lot of salesman sold it to customers refer to it as 'buying American'.

Maybe the outside foil wrapping of the cell is actually made here in the U.S.A. ... and used in the assembly / manufacture of the rest of the completed cell... so they leave the identification on the foil cell wrapping ... which would be 100% correct to call it made in the U.S.A.

We just don't know.
 

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We just don't know.
Surprisingly enough, for you and me, I agree with every single thing you said. You last statement, quoted above, is the short answer;)

That is why I think this "buy" program needs a robust incoming QC program. Otherwise, we seem to just be building another HBR operation, or less.
 

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Surprisingly enough, for you and me, I agree with every single thing you said. You last statement, quoted above, is the short answer;)

That is why I think this "buy" program needs a robust incoming QC program. Otherwise, we seem to just be building another HBR operation, or less.
The group buy was just an idea I thought would help everyone get, what seems to me, a good opportunity. I was thinking to simply organize us together as a group to buy the cells and then redistribute. If someone wants to do more...

I do not have the equipment to do robust QC, but if you are interested in taking over the group buy and doing the robust QC, let me know. I am more than happy to pass the torch. Call me at 608-729-4082.
 

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As the cells are coming from a far eastern vendor and are of unknown provenance you should only really get involved if you can afford to lose the money if it all goes wrong or they only last 3 years. It's impracticable to send them back if they are U/S.

People have to be realistic in their expectations, there are no real guarantees whatsoever.

If you want your group buy co-ordinator to bench test every cell before sending them on, and warranty each cell, they have to have the equipment and time to do it. It follows that their time/risk has to be compensated for in increased cell cost. I'm bench testing 20 or so spare pouches on my $1000 electronic load and can get a very accurate capacity reading to match cells in the packs, but it takes an hour per cell at 1C discharge, so a 50 cell pack will take a week or so just to test, 500 cells = !!!!

The group buy is a great idea though if Eric can pull it together as you will get a better price.

If you want the safe solution buy a new nimh pack from Honda.
 

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Average vs. Above Average

If you want the safe solution buy a new nimh pack from Honda.
Here, here. Well spoken, Peter. Risk inherent in this project can be managed by the steps that have been taken, but clearly cannot be eliminated.

I, for one, am willing to assume the risk involved in participating. Obviously, it's a personal choice for each of us who have expressed interest and are considering jumping onboard. It sure helps to have company though;) Thanks all.
 

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I do not have the equipment to do robust QC,
I have no intent nor interest in taking over the group buy organization ... more power to you and my thanks for your taking that initiative.

As for QC ... as Peter wrote the base price doesn't include much if any at all ... a good bit of risk... if you want less risk ... this might not be the purchase for you.

I have equipment to do reasonable levels of testing ... and I full well plan to test the cells I get ... in order to quantify them ... that is also one of the reasons I am considering 55 cells ... after testing the 5 least matched cells I will not put in the car ... but might use for other projects.

For others who also have such equipment ... I would recommend they also do some quantification testing on the cells they get ... and buying a few extra is not a bad idea before QC is done.

For those who don't have testing equipment ... I would suggest they find someone who does ... or get prepared to do it themselves.

For what it would cost to ship them to and from someone else and even a tiny fee for that person's time ... and you will have spent more than enough to buy the basic tools needed to do it yourself.

I can do basic tests of cells for other people if they need it ... but I would sooner suggest they do it themselves... it will probably be cheaper and faster all said and done to do it themselves.
 
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