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I have heard of people doing that, Try it and let us know.
If you have contamination on your O2 sensor, then you have something else wrong.
IIRR the max temp. for an o2 sensor is around 1700F.
 

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Of the three oxygen sensors in the car, only the upstream sensor is a wideband air fuel sensor aka LAF sensor.

I put the LAF sensor off until last because of its cost and because mine showed signs of contamination. I don't know a good way to confirm or eliminate a subtle contamination problem if in fact what I observed was not simply normal after 150K miles. I also did not want to find that my mileage problem was elsewhere. After finding small improvements in some places and eliminating other potential issues I decided to finally try the new sensor.

I am now running a new Denso LAF sensor. I am very happy with the improvement in mileage it brought. I still, however, feel a slight stumbling when at the edge of lean burn, when trying to get the most power out of it. So there is more to do.

One thing you could do is pull the LAF sensor, write down the numbers on it, and post a picture. I can tell you which of mine it matches up with, if any. The holes in my CVT sensor are smaller and fewer than my MT sensor. Dont try to clean it; try to get an accurate representation of its color and deposits by taking it under different light so that ant courseness or color nuance stands out.
Here's the LAF out of my 2006 MT. Searching for 92400-1061 did not return a result. Honda shows part number: 36531-PHM-A21 @ $328.65. Damn thing must have some kind of precious metal in it. eBay selleralanisdeals06 list one for $42.75 shipping out of California. For what its worth, the auction image looks very similar to the OEM part., Anyone have experience with after market?

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Discussion Starter #23 (Edited)
Here's the LAF out of my 2006 MT. Searching for 92400-1061 did not return a result. Honda shows part number: 36531-PHM-A21 @ $328.65. Damn thing must have some kind of precious metal in it. eBay selleralanisdeals06 list one for $42.75 shipping out of California. For what its worth, the auction image looks very similar to the OEM part., Anyone have experience with after market?

View attachment 81925 View attachment 81926
This is identical to the three Denso LAF sensors I have for the later year MTs. The white discoloration is similar to what I've seen on my original 04 MT sensor. My new Denso was about $130 on Amazon. The LAF sensor from my CVT, on the other hand, has fewer and smaller holes and looks identical to the Bosch aka Denso, which I believe is incorrectly specified to work with both the MT and CVT, and is seen earlier in this thread.

I found the listing you spoke of. Problem is, the picture is just not good enough to examine the hole pattern. You may be onto something, though. I would ask the seller for a better image of the hole pattern. If the hole pattern is the same as yours, I would verify his return policy and then order it. Also ask if it is for the MT or the CVT.

When you install it, you will want to give the ECU enough time to learn about it. My method is to reset the ECU, perform the idle relearn procedure, and then drive it under a variety of conditions. It may take a bit of time than that for the car to establish the fuel trims across a variety of RPMs and loads before you can conclusively tell if things are better.

The best description of this process seems to be here: https://www.civicforums.com/forums/333-idle-issues/328343-if-you-have-idle-issues-look-here-before-posting.html

  • Drive the car until the engine is hot.
  • Stop the car long enough to pull the battery for about a minute. (Some places say 10 minutes; this is to clear the old data from the ECU).
  • Turn the car to ON for two seconds then start it.
  • Some places say to run the engine at 3000 RPM in neutral until it reaches 195C or the fam turns on; the recent engine operation will likely have already put you there
  • let it idle for 10 minutes
In my experience, the first 10-15 miles/20 minutes are too soon too make any determination and that you really need to go through roughly a tank of gas to hit enough driving conditions before you can really start relying on your MPG numbers or feel of the engine. It may take that long for some codes to reappear.

Let us know if it works out or if you have to return it.

Note: I am still learning about this system, so your experience may be completely different.

They say that replacing the LAF on an engine that has an underlying problem (oil consumption? Coolant consumption? Reassembled after a repair using gasket goo containing silicone?) can kill your new sensor, so maybe verify that your engine is in good shape before doing the swap.

By the way, I am not completely sure that the white deposits are normal or a sign of oil consumption and if my new sensor is being contaminated. FYI.
 

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New sensor arrived today. Interesting to note the manufacture's name has been blasted off. I do like the appropriate length wires and thread anti-seize. My guess its a Denso part. I'll let you know how it works.
 

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New sensor arrived today. Interesting to note the manufacture's name has been blasted off. I do like the appropriate length wires and thread anti-seize. My guess its a Denso part. I'll let you know how it works.
Nice. Betcha that's gonna work great.
 

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I'm getting in an out of the 200 mile per gallon range sometimes 250–270 miles 5th gear at 1000 to 1200 RPM. The car still responds to the ecu and will go in and out of Lean burn or purge. Even more often than when I was getting 117 mpg. Car still uses a lot of fuel to increase speed while going up in gear. Once you hit 50 and go stable well the skies the limit.
 

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What surprises me," the purge" i'm burning gas vapor. How does the car get more power build up speed going up hill in the purge at super lean combustion chamber parameters. And how old is Joe Pesci now ?he's going to be another movie after 20 years retired. Same year the Honda Insight come out.I just found y'all today .finally something interesting I love the smell of aluminum in the morning!
 

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It was not the correct sensor. I don’t even think it’s even an A/F sensor. It acted like a regular O2. Car was jerky and threw a DTC. I put the old one back in.


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That's a shame. I was hoping we had a lead on some inexpensive, compatible sensors. Thanks for making the effort to try it out.
 

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And Nathan, my friend, I have been following your thread and must thank you for helping me figure out that my fuel pump and fuel pressure regulator are in great shape. But MAN you are KILLING me with anxiety! please restore your fuel system before you hurt yourself/others! Because first you are too much of a jewel and it would be a major loss. And because second I believe that your fuel economy on these tests is because you disabled the fuel pressure regulator and the car is getting a lot more fuel than it (or you) think it is. Your fuel pump may also be putting out too much pressure or the injectors are leaking or the orifices too big which would explain why this car's MPG is so much higher than the others you own. Google for fuel pressure regulator differential pressure. Take care, my friend.
 

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That's a shame. I was hoping we had a lead on some inexpensive, compatible sensors. Thanks for making the effort to try it out.
I’m going to need a good LAF. Rock Auto list a few upstream O2 sensor for not too much money. Any idea which manufacture and part numbers meet the Honda 36531-PHM-A21 spec. It will cause me great pain if I have to pay close to $400 for an O2 sensor.

I did the applying propane torch until cherry red and quenching several times. It definitely cleaned the sensor and seemed to help the car run better but it’s had an O2 sensor DTC twice in as many days.


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I’m going to need a good LAF. Rock Auto list a few upstream O2 sensor for not too much money. Any idea which manufacture and part numbers meet the Honda 36531-PHM-A21 spec. It will cause me great pain if I have to pay close to $400 for an O2 sensor.

I did the applying propane torch until cherry red and quenching several times. It definitely cleaned the sensor and seemed to help the car run better but it’s had an O2 sensor DTC twice in as many days.


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Amazon has received good reviews on a Denso 234-9013 works in a 2002 Insight MT. 2002 -2006 use the same sensor.



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Discussion Starter #33
Amazon has received good reviews on a Denso 234-9013 works in a 2002 Insight MT. 2002 -2006 use the same sensor.



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I am pretty sure that is the one I am using.
 

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I am pretty sure that is the one I am using.
@Jcwhite57, before you send it back, did you do the idle relearn procedure: pull the battery 10 minutes, key on 2 sec then start, neutral at 3000 rpm until fan comes on or temp reaches 195, then let idle another 10 min?
 

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It was not the correct sensor. I don’t even think it’s even an A/F sensor. It acted like a regular O2. Car was jerky and threw a DTC. I put the old one back in.


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On second thought, how soon after installing the sensor did you experience the issues? Which DTC did it throw?

If you did not reset the ECU, the engine may have been delivering fuel based on adjustment values learned from using the old sensor, and the new sensor working differently can cause the engine to appear to run worse.

If you clear the ECU after installing the new sensor, by disconnecting the battery for a while, and then let the car idle hot for a while so the computer can adjust fuel delivery at idle, then the next miles would have the car learning about the new LAF sensor among the other sensors. The DTC could come from the change, not because there is an actual problem. I've seen this myself!

(I'm sorry I can't be more specific on this but I've seen no official documentation on how the engine adjusts for operating variances. OBD uses the concept of fuel trim and maps, but I don't know how Honda does it.)

I now make a habit of pulling the battery, then have the car learn at idle after warming up, then drive for maybe 30 miles before I begin trusting the new MPG numbers.

Have you returned the sensor? If not, I'd like to swap it for one of my used sensors which do not throw a code in my car but aren't giving me the best mileage. It might be useful in troubleshooting. We can swap sensors back if I find that yours is actually working well. Are you around the DC area? (Looks like we lost our locations in the new site.)
 

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@Jcwhite57, before you send it back, did you do the idle relearn procedure: pull the battery 10 minutes, key on 2 sec then start, neutral at 3000 rpm until fan comes on or temp reaches 195, then let idle another 10 min?
I couldn’t find a relearn procedure so I disconnected the battery for a long while. Installed the new sensor and drove for a bit. Engine was jerking very bad and set aN O2 DTC. I reset it several times with same result. I’m returning it.

Is the relearn procedure in the service manual?

I’ve ordered a Denso 234-9013 from Amazon and I’ll install Friday and perform the relearn when I do. That’s supposed to be the correct sensor.


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I couldn’t find a relearn procedure so I disconnected the battery for a long while. Installed the new sensor and drove for a bit. Engine was jerking very bad and set aN O2 DTC. I reset it several times with same result. I’m returning it.

Is the relearn procedure in the service manual?

I’ve ordered a Denso 234-9013 from Amazon and I’ll install Friday and perform the relearn when I do. That’s supposed to be the correct sensor.


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Well, that does sound like the sensor. Was the jerking happening in lean burn? or all the time? When I was running what I now think is a CVT sensor in my MT, once in lean burn I'd step on the gas and the car would DECELERATE then fall of lean burn and zoom.

Oh well. I think you'll be happy with the Denso. Perhaps to have the car relearn idle parameters, drive the car after you install it to get it hot, then park, pull the battery cable, and then let it idle for 10 minutes to learn the idle part of the map. Then you could avoid sitting there revving the engine, maybe. "Maybe" because we don't know what the ECU is really looking for.

If you google "idle relearn site:insightcentral.net" you should find links. I think it is mentioned in some of the Honda service bulletins available in one of the downloads.

I was talking to another member today and I think I'm going to give Bosch a call about their repackaged Denso which shows up as compatible for both the MT and CVT for our years but doesn't work with the MT and looks very much like the sensor in my CVT.

later....
 

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Discussion Starter #39
The jerking was constant at any speed. Its on its way back to the seller.
That sucks. One thing fishy about that sensor was that it had the Denso part number on it. None of the three Denso sensors I have (one from my 04 and one from a junkyard 06 and a new Denso from Amazon - probably the same one you bought) - have the Denso part number on them. The numbers on them did not show up in Google searches except were somebody was posting it because they read it off the sensor.

Thanks for putting up with my badgering.
 
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