Honda Insight Forum banner

1 - 20 of 114 Posts

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
292 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
What numbers should we be expecting when doing the AH test? I forced my pack full yesteday and depleted it on the way to work this a.m. and the gauge shows only about
+0.13 -0.78 for a net of -0.65 total used. This seems really low compared to what I was expecting. I think I have a healthy pack and have never had any recals other than after grid charging.

Alan
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
10,615 Posts
You should be looking for a max of around 4ah for a pack in great condition.

The gauge at present only counts current when in the main display screen. So after you have cleared the ah/time etc before setting off you must return to the main screen for the actual drive/trip. Only when stopped at other end should you go into the ah screen to check the results.

I haven't checked ah/wh counting so we need some others to do the pack test to check it's not got a bug.
 

·
Moderator
Joined
·
6,918 Posts
Like Peter says, the theoretical maximum for a pack in excellent condition is 3.9Ah(60% of 6.5Ah), but I think in practice it will be more like 3.3Ah since our cells are rated at 5.5Ah with current of 32A or more.

I'll try and remember to compare the OBDIIC&C Ah/Wh numbers with the BCM Gauge.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
292 Posts
Discussion Starter #4 (Edited)
OK, Thanks Peter.

I was on the SOC reset screen most of the time. LOL :)

That makes testing a little more tricky. So when I go to bump the SOC to high each time I need to engage my clutch switch so that I don't have any lost AH data.

I will test again tomorrow.

Thanks,
Alan

PS. I guess I should have figured that out as the LB LED stayed on when I was on the SOC screen, even when I was using assist. :)
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
10,615 Posts
That makes testing a little more tricky. So when I go to bump the SOC to high each time I need to engage my clutch switch so that I don't have any lost AH data.
That's a good plan. Eventually gauge will count in background/any mode as well.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
292 Posts
Discussion Starter #6
I started out this a.m. with the battery grid charged to 174v and depleted it on the way to work this morning trying not to allow assist by useing the clutch switch. Wow a lot more capacity than I expected. BTW I did check my config bits and they are all 1's except for the temp is set to 0 for F.
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
813 Posts
Here's what I did to come up with this pic:

Used SOC reset mode to set SOC to 40%, repeatedly, until the car recal-ed to 75% almost immediately.

Reset the Ah/Wh display

Use max assist as much as possible (WOT and coastdown cruising over a 50-65mph speed range), use clutch switch to avoid regen as much as possible. When assist is locked out, use SOC mode to reset SOC to 75% until it immediately recals down.

This is an OEM pack that was replaced an estimated 2 years before I bought the car in May 2011. The 100A fuse was replaced by me in September 2011.
 

Attachments

·
Moderator
Joined
·
6,918 Posts
Hmm. Alan's reading seems a little anomalous. It could be partly because of the grid charge? Did you forget to reset it after your last test?

5.32 - 0.78 on your first test - the 0.46 input gives you 4.08Ah, which is a more believable number, but I find it highly suspect that any stock pack could be giving anywhere near 5.0Ah. ;)

Like I said, the maximum theoretical amp hours from a stock, healthy pack is 3.9Ah(60% of 6.5Ah). In reality, it should be closer to 3.3Ah as stock cells are only rated for 5.5Ah @ 32A of discharge or more.

The BetterBattery has 8Ah cells, and gives 4.8Ah(60% of 8Ah) and 0.66kWh. We need to verify that the Ah/Wh counting is correct, though it should be if it's essentially the same code the BCM Gauge uses.

Racer's numbers are more in line with what I would expect from an aged pack. I was pretty surprised to see that my believed to be healthy 1.5 year old stock pack was only giving 3Ah(0.38kWh) - and that's after a grid charge.

What we should actually be paying attention to more than amp hours is the watt hours. This is actual power output: Volts * Amps. Amp hours alone only gives you half the picture, but it's still a useful number.

We should probably start a Capacity spreadsheet. :)
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
292 Posts
Discussion Starter #9
I was very careful to reset everything this morning. This test was good. My previous test was not due to not being on the main display screen during testing per Peter.
 

·
Moderator
Joined
·
6,918 Posts
I'm not really trying to doubt you, just don't understand how that's possible. When was your pack replaced?

According to your test, your pack is outperforming the BetterBattery..... :-?

We need to get you setup with some logging action, I'd need to see the full picture to believe that.

I know you said the +32% mode isn't enabled, but.. double check? :) lol

Really needs to be put into a secret menu, or make it so two bits have to change to enable it. Adds too much uncertainty.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
292 Posts
Discussion Starter #11
Eli,

I double checked the config bits and 32% is not enabled.
Maybe the grid charge takes the pack above the 80% level. Also it was really cold today so I wasn't demanding over 30A for long if at all. You can see from the time on the display how long it took me to get to work and it took the whole trip to slowly use the pack up. I did alot of pulse and glide with the clutch switch off. I was trying to use it somewhat slowlyas to minimize recals so I didn't have to jump screens to reset the charge to 80%.
 

·
Moderator
Joined
·
6,918 Posts
Oh... I think I understand now. You guys are resetting the SoC high again after a recal and continuing to discharge?

That makes sense then. I think that may be somewhat cheating? In my testing, my test ends after the first negative recal. What you guys are doing is sort've a crude pack whack. It's not "real" capacity, since the BCM would have cut you off long before that if not for the SoC reset. This is just going to confuse things. I was able to get almost 3Ah out of my very weak IMA light throwing pack by resetting the SoC over and over again, but I would never say that the pack has 3Ah of capacity - it clearly does not, since the BCM limits things at about 1.5Ah without resetting the SoC.

I could probably get close to 8Ah out of the BetterBattery if I did it that way, lol.

Remember to be careful. Like Mike says, we don't understand the whole picture when it comes to fooling the BCM - it's an experimental novelty right now. Don't want to risk cell reversal.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
813 Posts
IMO, i think its relatively safe, i mean, after one or two SOC resets, the BCM changes it back almost ommediately (both directions, trying to overfill and overdrain.)

I think my 2.7Ah (350Wh) is a fairly accurate depiction of an aging, but still quite healthy pack.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
292 Posts
Discussion Starter #14
Eli,

So your test would be as follows.

1) Drive the car until you get the car to fill the battery to 20 bars with no external charging.
2) Reset the AH/WH displays.
3) Drive the car using as much of the battery as the car will allow before the forced charge that happens even when the clutch switch is engaged.
4) Read the results on the screen.

This would give you the capacity within the cars 60% charge window.

Right?
 

·
Moderator
Joined
·
6,918 Posts
I was able to reset the SoC to high 7 times on the weak pack before it began not allowing assist even before the negative recal. We have absolutely no clue what that looked like on the cell level.

I really wouldn't make a habit of this. It should be used as a pack whack, nothing more. Contiuing to discharge beyond when the BCM decides something has gone awry could have negative consequences down the road if done regularly. Occasional deep discharges and overcharges are good for the battery, but doing this regularly will shorten it's cycle life.

I don't like it because it completely confuses the mountain of data I've collected on the stock packs and BetterBattery.

When I use the SoC reset, I use it to whack the pack, and then I see how the pack's behavior to the first negative recal changes. I really don't think it's fair to state that "My pack has 5Ah of capacity" when that 5Ah came through multiple negative recals.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
292 Posts
Discussion Starter #16
I was just trying to follow a testing proceedure that really wasn't defined anywhere. Is the proceedure that I proposed in the earlier post what we should be doing?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
813 Posts
As a side note, I'm still much more happy with the way my green on black gauge looks compared to everything else i've seen.
 

·
Moderator
Joined
·
6,918 Posts
Eli,

So your test would be as follows.

1) Drive the car until you get the car to fill the battery to 20 bars with no external charging.
2) Reset the AH/WH displays.
3) Drive the car using as much of the battery as the car will allow before the forced charge that happens even when the clutch switch is engaged.
4) Read the results on the screen.

This would give you the capacity within the cars 60% charge window.

Right?
Pretty much. I get the car up to 82.0% SoC, which is when it stops regen, then peg the MIMA joystick to full assist until the battery is depleted. Since I log the data, I don't actually use the Ah/Wh screen - I do the Ah/Wh calculation in the spreadsheet.

This is what that looks like:

Stock Pack(1.5yr old) Mountain Run #8 - Volts, Temp, SoC, Amps

To be fair, MIMA will continue to slowly deplete the pack after the negative recalibration, but it's minimal - seems to be consistent at about 0.2-0.3Ah.

Here's what the amp hour outputs look like on successive pack whacks with the IMA light throwing pack:

Weak Stock Pack Run 1-4 Amp Hours

The first number is the amp hours at the point of recalibration, which is what you would expect with a stock car I guess.
 

·
Moderator
Joined
·
6,918 Posts
Moving the discussion in the other thread here. Will edit this post with more information and a spreadsheet as I have time.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
292 Posts
Discussion Starter #20
Many of us don't have MIMA or a mountan around so I think we should have some proceedure for testing our cars with just the ODBII C&C and maybe a clutch switch.
 
1 - 20 of 114 Posts
About this Discussion
113 Replies
9 Participants
retepsnikrep
Honda Insight Forum
We’re the ultimate Honda Insight forum to talk about Honda’s hybrid car and its fuel economy and specs!
Full Forum Listing
Top