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Yea I'm really struggling with this one. I can't figure out why it's fighting me. I'll be taking logs of what's going on when I get home this coming week.
There's no shame in finding a tuner who can point you in the right direction.

Sigma:
Could you be more specific on your location, instead of just SOCAL.
No problem, updated
 

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Discussion Starter #62
There's no shame in finding a tuner who can point you in the right direction.


No problem, updated
Oh man, if I could find one that could find out what this problem is, I would jump on it in a heartbeat. I'm sure there are some here in SoCal, I just don't know where to find them.
 

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Throw up the datalog. I'm curious to see more and I've tinkered in tuning for years now. I learned recently that these cars use 2 map sensors. The one by the booster is simply to kick out off auto stop to recharge the brake booster.

The good news? I think they are the same sensor. Freebie to try and swap it if that would be an issue.

I'd love to see what all you have going on as far as issues.
 

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Discussion Starter #64
Throw up the datalog. I'm curious to see more and I've tinkered in tuning for years now. I learned recently that these cars use 2 map sensors. The one by the booster is simply to kick out off auto stop to recharge the brake booster.

The good news? I think they are the same sensor. Freebie to try and swap it if that would be an issue.

I'd love to see what all you have going on as far as issues.
Absolutely! I'm sorry for such the spotty responses. I work 7 days a week 12/hr a day so I basically just work-eat-sleep-work lmao. Tomorrow I finally work an 8, so I'll go for a drive and capture what is happening.
 
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I guess depends on which shop is best suited for AEM products in your case.

I would check with
Churches
(310) 518-4966
300 Quay Ave, Wilmington, CA 90744

And
Bisimoto
(888) 922-6686
2060 S Lynx Pl, Ontario, CA 91761

Churches is really good, not sure if they use AEM, but they know Hondas well.

Bisimoto might be expensive but he's very qualified, I forget what his degree is in, but it's either EE or Me, very educated person. He's recently been getting into more EVs and he used to have an Insight drag car that did 9s in the 1/4, it was running a 450hp F series motor. Pretty impressive. But I know he's expressed interest in working with the original hybrid system of the insight recently. So I imagine he might be the most interested in working on your car.
 

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Discussion Starter #66
I guess depends on which shop is best suited for AEM products in your case.

I would check with
Churches
(310) 518-4966
300 Quay Ave, Wilmington, CA 90744

And
Bisimoto
(888) 922-6686
2060 S Lynx Pl, Ontario, CA 91761

Churches is really good, not sure if they use AEM, but they know Hondas well.

Bisimoto might be expensive but he's very qualified, I forget what his degree is in, but it's either EE or Me, very educated person. He's recently been getting into more EVs and he used to have an Insight drag car that did 9s in the 1/4, it was running a 450hp F series motor. Pretty impressive. But I know he's expressed interest in working with the original hybrid system of the insight recently. So I imagine he might be the most interested in working on your car.
I have heard of Bisimoto and Churches before, not sure why it didn't cross my mind. I think I'll call Bisi first and see what he says, then Churches if he can't help me.

Also, for everyone else, I think I figured out what's causing the afr fluctuations, but I have no idea what's causing it to occur. It's the AEM FIC. In low vacuum load, the cells are fluctuating like crazy. This causes the unit to use the fuel table from my boosted section under NA operation, and floods the engine for a split second. Below is a YouTube video I captured of it. I'll get some datalogs either today when I wake up, or tomorrow when I get off work.

 

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The aem unit has a built in map sensor correct? Is that vacuum source dedicated to the aem unit only? If not switch it to its own and see if it helps.

That much movement isn't that unheard of. The other thing it could be is a tps sensor starting to wear out. Or a poor connection to either the tps or map sensor
 

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Discussion Starter #68
The aem unit has a built in map sensor correct? Is that vacuum source dedicated to the aem unit only? If not switch it to its own and see if it helps.

That much movement isn't that unheard of. The other thing it could be is a tps sensor starting to wear out. Or a poor connection to either the tps or map sensor
But the throttle body is cable driven? Idk. As for the vacuum source, this has been happening since the install of the turbo kit. I have changed vacuum sources 3 times (not for this specific thing, was trying to clean up the engine bay) and the behavior is the same. I guess I could try moving to an own independent source, but I'm not really sure where I would get that unless I tap the intake manifold.
 

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Yeah, so if the sensor is on a dedicated line it could help, you don't want to be on a line with something mechanical, like a blow off valve or wastegate. The booster hose is probably an okay line to tap into, there is enough diameter to act as a bit of a buffer. If you tap off of that then you need to be between the engine and check valve, otherwise you will only ever read vacuum.

Speed density uses manifold pressure and throttle valve opening to calculate load and air volume for fueling. Not sure how versed you are in all this stuff so apologies if it's a bit generic or dumbed down.

You have a throttle position sensor on the opposite side of the throttle body to where the cable attaches to. It is a potentiometer and has a contact that swipes along a resistance strip to get a voltage based on opening angle.
 

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I feel that you will get a little jumping around on the AFR as not all three cylinders are exactly alike. Valve adj. carbon build up etc. My extra AF gauge also jumps around slightly and i live with it.
 

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Discussion Starter #71
I feel that you will get a little jumping around on the AFR as not all three cylinders are exactly alike. Valve adj. carbon build up etc. My extra AF gauge also jumps around slightly and i live with it.
Yea but this is not a slight swing, this is a noticable, surge enducing 2 point afr spread (13.5ish to 15.5ish).

I went over every inch of vacuum line with a vacuum tester today and verified I do not have a vacuum leak as well.
 

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Discussion Starter #72 (Edited)
Yeah, so if the sensor is on a dedicated line it could help, you don't want to be on a line with something mechanical, like a blow off valve or wastegate. The booster hose is probably an okay line to tap into, there is enough diameter to act as a bit of a buffer. If you tap off of that then you need to be between the engine and check valve, otherwise you will only ever read vacuum.

Speed density uses manifold pressure and throttle valve opening to calculate load and air volume for fueling. Not sure how versed you are in all this stuff so apologies if it's a bit generic or dumbed down.

You have a throttle position sensor on the opposite side of the throttle body to where the cable attaches to. It is a potentiometer and has a contact that swipes along a resistance strip to get a voltage based on opening angle.
I'm using a multi port vacuum block that is fed by the old PCV line that comes off the intake manifold. It's the first item on the line.

I'll be working on the car more this weekend. I'm swapping out the turbo for a bigger one (about 20-25%). I'm going from a VZ21 to a GT12. The last turbo Insight I did was a GT12 and I loved it. I hate the throttle response on this VZ21. 20% Throttle induces boost and it's awful. I'll also be putting the stock injectors back in it, and removing the piggyback to see if the AFR fluctuation issue goes away (I'll stay out of boost!).
 

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I didn't realize it was a 2 point swing. Not very familiar with the aem software I'll be honest.

Did you ever get it work with the narrowband input instead of wideband? I'm looking for the same install directions now to see if it would be be something there.

What injectors are you using, toyota still? What duty cycle are you at under high boost/rpm? I remember back in the day when using peak and hold injectors the spray pattern was ****ty and would cause part throttle tuning issues.

I'm curious now if you stay out of boost and leave everything hooked up if swapping back to stock injectors would fix it.

Edit, just read the installation instructions, mind sending over a copy of the tune I can look at?
 

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Discussion Starter #74
I didn't realize it was a 2 point swing. Not very familiar with the aem software I'll be honest.

Did you ever get it work with the narrowband input instead of wideband? I'm looking for the same install directions now to see if it would be be something there.

What injectors are you using, toyota still? What duty cycle are you at under high boost/rpm? I remember back in the day when using peak and hold injectors the spray pattern was ****ty and would cause part throttle tuning issues.

I'm curious now if you stay out of boost and leave everything hooked up if swapping back to stock injectors would fix it.

Edit, just read the installation instructions, mind sending over a copy of the tune I can look at?
Oof I been at work, hence the lack of a reply.

I...Kinda got the o2 to work. You will see what I have done in the O2 section of the tune, which I will attach below, the entire table in boost range is 0.02v. for some reason, no other setting works except that one, and it puts the afr at about 12.5 under boost (+/- 0.2). I'm not 100% sure I have it hooked up right. I know it's a narrowband, so shouldn't the voltage on the + signal side be like 1v? Because I'm getting a little over 2v, it's pin 4 on ECU plug D, as shown in the picture I will attach below. I think? Mind you my car is a late production '01 (OBDII port is by the drivers right knee, not under the glovebox like 00 and early '01.) Not to mention, I can't even follow AEM's narrowband tuning guide because of the stupid AFR fluctuations.

Yea I'm still using the toyota injectors. I have no idea what duty cycle I'm at. I haven't bothered looking. I don't like going to high rpm/boost because I think I'm hearing knocking. There is no evidence of it, the plugs look fine, and no pitting on the piston heads. It could be engine harmonics but, yea. They have more holes than the stock insight injectors, so I'm assuming they have a better spray pattern.

I'm going to be putting it back to stock before I swap the turbo. So I'll know on Friday when I do that and report back.

Uhg, it won't let me upload the tune. It's an 'invalid file type'.

[Edit]: I have a 30 minute drive on my way home from work in about 20 mins. I'm going to try to datalog the ENTIRE trip. It will probably end up being to long to mean anything, but I'll try it anyway.
 

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Discussion Starter #75
I forgot I don't have my AFR gauge hooked up to my ecu yet. It's only for datalogging so it hasn't been a priority. I'll be doing that when I wake up today.
 

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Ok I'll pm you my email if it is still fussing a bit for file type. I'll take a look again over the wiring explanation and diagrams to see if I can make sorts of what's going on.
 

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Ok I'll pm you my email if it is still fussing a bit for file type. I'll take a look again over the wiring explanation and diagrams to see if I can make sorts of what's going on.
I sent you the tune a hour or so ago. I won't be able to get the afr gauge hooked up to the aem until friday, I forgot the analog harness for the afr controller is sitting at my shop, which I won't be to until Friday.
 

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FAIL, system admins blocked the install of the aem software, tonight it is! going over the wiring diagrams at least.
 
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