[Jcwhite57]

I've read and troubleshot all I can stand but have not been able to resolve the problem. -HELP-

2002 CVT Insight/180k miles. Probably original battery (yellow stick sleeves).

Background:
A few months ago my IMA went south with typical unbalanced cell symptoms.
I removed the NIMH sticks and low current cycled each stick two times in an attempt to recondition. I also purchased a used battery from Bumble Bee in case some sticks were too far gone. Picked out the sticks that had the most energy capacity and re-installed in vehicle after discharging each stick to 1v/cell. Also installed a RB Battery grid charger. Grid charged battery for 14 hours and had 156v on meter. Was expecting to get closer to 180v. Car started with IMA and went for a test drive. SOC meter was working but erratic and never had IMA assist or charge. IMA light on. Grid charged for another day and voltage was about 177V.

Current Conditions:
IMA light is on. Instrument SOC, assist and charge lights are completely off although do cycle on with ig on. 12v is charging until 4200 RPM, then brake and battery light turn on but turn off after a couple of minutes after reducing RPM. DTC codes P1576 and P1648 set immediately when ig on. P1445 sets after driving. Battery will grid charge to 180v in a couple of hours but self discharges rather quickly.

I've checked all the fuses including the 100A semiconductor fuse and the smaller pack fuse. All read good continuity. All connectors are plugged in properly and no broken wires.

I'm prepared to order a set of new sticks from Bumble Bee but want to correct any other problems prior to such a large investment.

Can a bad IMA battery cause these DTC codes that disable the IMA? Any suggestions on what else to check?

 

[S Keith]

What is a RM Battery grid charger? What is its charge rate?

P1576 indicates that the 10 voltage readings the car takes throughout the pack are seriously imbalanced.

P1648 suggests a connection problem. Did you make all the BCM connections?

P1445 is the bypass contactor, which is what completes the circuit in the pack and allows it to discharge/charge. Could be because you didn't make a connection.

Double check all your connections.

Yes, a bad IMA battery can cause those DTC codes, as can an improper installation or damage.

Check your voltage taps. Link in my signature.

 

[mudder]

DTC codes P1576 and P1648 set immediately when ig on. P1445 sets after driving.

Based on the information you've provided, I propose that none of those codes are due to a failing IMA battery. Something else is up in your IMA's communication system. It could be a simple thing like ground straps, an unplugged connector, or a failing computer, but I'm willing to bet it isn't the actual IMA battery. I only live two hours away from you. I can fix the problem, but you'll need to come to me. I won't do it for free, but I know these cars inside and out and can likely tell you what's wrong in under an hour. PM me to discuss rates, which are very reasonable because I like meeting insight owners and have an odd obsession with this car... it's the owner car I work on.

 

[Jcwhite57]

Thanks for the help.

An RB Batterries grid charger is a basic grid charger I purchased on eBay with a charge rate of 300ma. I'll try to locate the bypass contactor and check the connection. Along with the tap voltages.


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[Mountain driver]

Here's a link to AbCaRed00's dtc spreadsheet.

Looks like the 1648 is an mcm comm signal issue. All plugs snug on the mcm ?
Agreed with Steve's notes from above on the 1576 and 1445.

Why not get a new Bumblebee from Eli + his warranty ? Way less trouble and headache.

btw: Awesome offer from Mudder in TN. He's good people and will steer you straight.

 

[Jcwhite57]

Mudder I may come see you if I can't figure it out. Of course with the holidays it may be awhile. Fortunately I'm still able to drive the car but it's not much fun. The trunk latch is still working great btw. I was hoping to squeeze a little more use out of the battery but am prepared buy a set of new sticks from Bumblebee.

I think the bypass contactor is the same as the precharge contactor that has a resistor in series with it. The grid charger connected to the resistor with a piggyback slip on connector. Maybe it dint make a good connection for some reason.


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[Jcwhite57]

Made some progress. One of the MCM connectors was not completely seated and clicked when I pushed on it hard. The piggyback connector on the bypass resistor was loose so I squeezed the slides a bit with pliers. Reset codes with scan tool and disconnected the battery for a few minutes. Unfortunately same symptoms but only have a P 1648 DTC.

I pulled every connector and checked for bent pins or broken wires. Everything looks good.




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[Jcwhite57]

After driving, the P1576 DTC returned. Not too concerned about that since it will clear with a new battery. Wish I had another BCM and MCM modules to eliminate those as the problem.


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[Jcwhite57]

There's a set of 2003 MCM and BCM for $105 free shipping. Seller says tested good. I'm going to purchase them to be safe.


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[Jcwhite57]

Just realized the CVT and MT use different MCM units. Oh well.


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[samwichse]

I'm sure mudder has a known-good set he can test it with.

 

[mudder]

I definitely have known good MT MCM/BCM set. Good progress so far! Let me know if/when you want to head down.

 

[Rainsux]

Just realized the CVT and MT use different MCM units. Oh well.

I don't know what the difference is, but they are interchangeable, at least one way. My CVT came to me with a MT MCM. It's still in there and works fine. I can't imagine that the CVT one wouldn't work in an MT car.

Sam

 

[mudder]

I don't know of any differences between the MT/CVT modules, but I haven't spent too much time looking at a CVT MCM... it's probably just a software difference, but someone would need to send me their CVT MCM to figure out.

 

[Jcwhite57]

That's good information about CVT and MT being interchangeable.

Attempting to determine source of P1648 DTC (BCM/MCM communication circuit problem):
The wiring diagram shows 2 com. lines routing from the MCM to the instrument gauge and BCM via connector J/C C507. Book says its behind the seat on center of floor. Even shows a picture. Is this connector accessible without removing the IMA battery or will I see it if I peel the carpet back from the panel behind the seat?

 

[mudder]

That's good information about CVT and MT being interchangeable.

Attempting to determine source of P1648 DTC (BCM/MCM communication circuit problem):
The wiring diagram shows 2 com. lines routing from the MCM to the instrument gauge and BCM via connector J/C C507. Book says its behind the seat on center of floor. Even shows a picture. Is this connector accessible without removing the IMA battery or will I see it if I peel the carpet back from the panel behind the seat?

There are two connectors behind the metal plate underneath the middle mat carpet. Remove the gray side panels on either side of the carpet, then remove the carpet. You'll find ten 10 mm bolts. Remove those and you're in. Before you do that, though, read below because you likely don't need to do that just yet.

Note there are two connectors behind the middle mat area. If either one is disconnected, the entire IMA won't work. However, the BATTSCI lines only send data TO the instrument panel; you can disconnect BATTSCI1/2 from the instrument panel and the only side effect is the battery SoC and assist/regen gauges won't work. No error codes. No lost functionality.

However, if BATTSCI is broken between the MCM and BCM (or shorted in the instrument panel), then you'll get an error. You can check those lines with just the IMA cover off. Place your scope on the BATTSCI1/2 leads right at the BCM and see if you get data on the scope.

A simple thing you can do is swap in another IMA wiring harness. I'll loan you one if you'll cover shipping both ways... or you can usually buy them online for under $40. It's 1N000-PHM-010.

 

[Lyger]

might be a dumb shot in the dark but maybe try removing the grid charger system and see if that makes a difference? if it has no diodes and is improperly installed it could be causing a loop in the system and multiple erratic issues to show.

 

[Jcwhite57]

might be a dumb shot in the dark but maybe try removing the grid charger system and see if that makes a difference? if it has no diodes and is improperly installed it could be causing a loop in the system and multiple erratic issues to show.

Good suggestion but I always remove the grid charger before trying to run the car.


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[S Keith]

He's talking about the harness.

 

[Lyger]

He's talking about the harness.

what he said.