Message found #1
Re: IN-1 (Insight clone of EV-1) kit thought
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* Subject: Re: IN-1 (Insight clone of EV-1) kit thought
* From: John Wayland <
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* Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 11:41:15 -0700
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Hello to All,
Since I first proposed the electric Insight project, I've been cringing while reading some
of Dave's remarks, and just can't hold back as I feel the need to step in with my
perspective and corrections.
Dave Goldstein wrote:
>What a great idea: Introducing "The Green Battery"
>into the green Insight! I LOVE it!
No! The idea is to use the affordable and likely to be available in the next month or so,
Nickel Zinc batteries, not the far-too-expensive, far too finicky, far too elaborate NiMH
batteries! I also believe, that even with a seemingly lower whr per kg energy density, the
Nickel Zinc batteries in real life application, will take the car farther per charge than
the same weight of NiMH batteries that have to be kept in their 'sweet spot' that greatly
reduces the amount of energy one can reliably extract from these type of batteries.
>Besides the cost issue, several major problems
>must be addressed in trying to install *any* type
>of traction battery pack in the Insight:
I don't agree, and remember, I own an Insight and have had it torn apart more times than
most folks....I know the car intimately!
> 1.) Weight -- With a present curb weight of approx. 1,940 lbs.....
Dave, you're off a bit here. the car with AC, weighs in at 1887 lbs.
>this car will have to lose ~350 lbs (160 kg) to handle a 750 lb (340 kg) battery pack,
in order
>to reach John Wayland's 2,350 lb target. This may be a challenge in
>the lightweight Insight, in which even the
>1.0 liter gas motor only weighs 124 lbs!
Since you were off by more than 50 lbs., and using your logic, the car now has to lose
just 300 lbs. You're also forgetting other weighted items that add up fast, like the car's
exhaust system that has both a muffler and a catalytic converter...maybe 40 lbs.?
Including the weight of the admittedly very light 3 banger at 124 lbs., now we're down to
having to lose another 136 lbs. The current 12V accessory battery weighs about 25 lbs., so
replacing it with a small AGM that will be charged up by the DC-DC of the Siemens system,
throws out another 10 lbs.....now we're at 126 lbs. to lose. The NiMH battery pack weighs
55 lbs.....now we're at 71 lbs. to lose. The Insight's inverter, DC-DC sandwich has a cast
aluminum heat sink, and the package probably weighs 30 lbs.....now we're at 41 lbs. to
lose. I could go on here, but I would think a little bit of credibility needs to be
extended to me on these things....I've been involved with probably more than 100 EV
projects, and I am usually right on with my ideas and estimates. Just to make sure this
issue of weight is mute, remember that there's the engine radiator and cooling fans, many
black boxes and their mounting brackets, heavy cabling, the gas tank and its brackets,
etc.
>2.) Battery Weight: If you wanted to use the
> 85 ah EV1 NiMH batteries, this would
> effectively limit you to 250 volts (19 > modules @ 13.2 volts, @18 kg = 750 lbs
> 19.3 kWh of battery. In a
> 2,350 lb car with good aero, that should
> deliver better than 100 miles of range!
Again, diss the NiMH idea, and go with simple and so far as demonstrated in Sheer's car,
very strong Nickel Zinc batteries.
>** Note to Victor: Would 250 volts be
> sufficient for your 1PV5105WS12 AC motor system?
Victor says yes, but worries over a lower efficiency level...I do not, but I'll go into
this later.
> 3.) Volume: This is really tricky. 19 EV1
> NiMH's would occupy ~ 5 cubic feet! That's 141 liters or approx. the size
> of a 37 gallon (U.S.) tank! Could this *possibly* be shoehorned into an Insight?!
> Frankly, I doubt it.
Again.....diss the NiMH idea, and go with simple and so far as demonstrated in Sheer's
car, very strong Nickel Zinc batteries. But, just to beat this down, even these batteries
would fit. What I don't understand here, is why am I being challenged on my knowledge of a
car I own? I've stated that batteries will fit easily...they will! Dave says, "Frankly, I
doubt it", but he does not own an Insight, and has not had the IMA chamber torn apart as I
have, has not had the entire rear of the car torn down, as I have. Under the hatch floor
of the Insight, is a cavernous area, far bigger than needed for Honda's IMA stuff. It is 9
inches deep at the shallowest parts, very wide right up to the car's walls, and extends
all the way to the rear bulkhead. I figured on 720 lbs. of batteries, 20 of the Optima
sized Nickel Zincs, but many more could actually fit in there! Please, drop this
batteries-not-fitting thing, you're wrong!
> I seem to recall the energy density of NiZn as ~60 Wh/kg compared to
> 85 Wh/kg for the latest version of the Ovonic NiMH.
> If this is correct, then NiZn will occupy an even greater volume and produce
> less energy for the same amount of weight.
You're not taking into account, the way NiMH batteries have to be kept in their sweet
spot, which reduces the actual delivered power they can put out. Nickel Zinc isn't as
picky, thus more of their power can be used.
> And the expected battery life of NiZn in a heavy-duty EV application
> is still an open question.
On this, we agree. But....so far as we're seeing out west here with Sheer's car, the
batteries do everything the company touts they will do, in fact, they are delivering even
more than their rated capacity. When was the last time you saw a battery give more than
the battery hype dudes said they would? Because Evercell seems to be on the conservative
side, I tend to believe them about the cycle life. And on that note, consider how Evercell
comes up to their 600 cycle rating. They rate them at 600 cycles, because at that point,
the batteries are only delivering 80% of their rated capacity....this means that there are
still lots of usable cycle left, and who knows how long they will keep going at the
reduced level? In any event, with 130 mpc capability, you're looking at greater than
70,000 miles of pack life! At just twice as expensive as Optimas, you get a battery that
has three times the power (per weight of packs), and that delivers probably ten times the
life!
> Any of the nickel-based options will require adequate cooling and ventilation space --
> meaning still *more* volume required. You will have
> to work this out with the battery engineers.
Don't keep worrying about space for batteries....there's more than enough room for a
simple cooling system.
> Conclusion: This project will definitely require some creative battery packaging and
"Insight!"
> It is not for the faint of heart or pocketbook!
Can't agree with the 'creative battery packaging' needed, but I do certainly agree on the
'not for the faint of heart or pocketbook!'.
> It appears to me that 336 volts *is* doable...This suggests that you will have
> a much more difficult time making 300+ volts with NiZn within the confines of an
Insight.
OK, enough of this 'having to go to 300+ volts to get to Victor's target efficiency.
Victor and I have already had this discussion. The only reason to go up to that level, is
to raise the efficiency a bit. Time for a real life comparo to make my point:
The whole concept of my proposed Insight project, was based on the fact that I own both an
efficient DC machine, my 156V Blue Meanie Datsun, and the Insight. My Datsun weighs,
coincidentally, 2340 lbs., and the Insight EV is projected to weigh an almost identical
2350 lbs. Blue Meanie was never designed to be a long range EV...quite the opposite, it
was designed to lay rubber, accelerate strong, be able to bury the speedometer, and handle
great...it does all these things....just ask Seth! But, because it is a small car with a
low frontal area, because it has good bearings and LRR tires, and because it only weighs
2340 lbs., the darn thing is very thrifty on battery power, and this is why it can do 25
miles on just 13 Optimas....a paltry 585 lbs. of lead acid batteries. As it works out,
this car uses almost exactly, 1 ahr per mile, and as many already know, as used in
144V-156V EVs, a set of Optimas, though having a 65 ahr rating (C20), deliver about 25
ahrs before they're done.
OK, with the above info on Blue Meanie, let's see what a battery swap using the Optima
sized Nickel Zinc batteries would do (this may actually happen in the future). Remove the
13, 45 lb. Optimas that in this car, that are really 25 ahr modules, and drop in 13 of the
Optima sized Nickel Zinc batteries that weigh just 36 lbs. and have a 66 ahr, fully
deliverable rating (based on Sheer's experience with his Nickel Zinc batteries that also
easily deliver their rating). The battery pack weight drops from 585 lbs. to just 468
lbs.! That's a whopping 117 lbs. removed from the car. With a one ahr per mile
consumption, this gives 66 miles of range...that's nearly 3 times the range, but remember,
this is with 'less' battery pack weight, and with 117 lbs. out of this already light EV,
the ahr per mile consumption will drop to slightly under that amount, so the range might
be as high as 70 miles...even closer to three times the range!
To really make the comparison, replace the 585 lbs. of Optimas with the same weight
battery pack of Nickel Zinc batteries. How about 16 of the Nickel Zinc batteries for 192V
instead of 156V? Even at this level, the pack is still 9 lbs. lighter! OK, OK, let's just
call these two packs even, at 585 lbs. VS 576 lbs. Currently at 156V, the car uses about
50 amps to cruise on level ground at 55 mph or 7.8 kw to cruise at that speed, but with
192V instead, that current draw should drop to about 40 amps. A 40 amp current draw at
192V is very realistic, as John Bryan's 192V Ghia that weighs a pinch more than my car,
also pulls that same level, maybe a bit less....John? Bill Dube's Wabbit also had a
similar current draw at that speed, too. Anyway, figuring 40 amps at 55 mph, the 66 ahr
pack of Nickel Zinc batteries should be able to do this for an hour and a half easily...at
55 mph, that's over 80 miles of range...in my book, I call that three times the range! If
the Datsun could stay the same curb weight and have a 240V pack on board (as can the
Insight EV), the current draw at 55 mph would be just 32.5 amps! At a steady 55 mph, the
Datsun could travel 110 miles!
All the above, is done with an ADC 9 inch, brushed motor that has less efficiency than the
240V rating for Victor's Siemens AC system, and I haven't even factored in the slight
mileage boost from regen efforts. Thus, Victor's and now Dave's drumming of the need to
get to 300+ volts in order to raise efficiency, is mute. Yes, if Evercell had just the
right sized battery so that a 336V pack would weigh 720 lbs. and still easily fit in the
car, I would go that way to get even batter mileage performance, but for now, the 240V
pack of Optima sized Evercells is perfect, and even at the less-than-ideal efficiency
rating that the Siemens system will be at, it's still better than the DC motor set up.
Up to this point, I've used my 30 year old Datsun economy car as the standard to figure
the range thing, but remember, we're talking about the Insight! This is a car with even
less frontal area than the Datsun, the same projected weight, but whoa...far lower air
drag! The car also has more advanced wheel bearing and tires that are probably better in
their LLR rating, too. Finally, it will have a 720 lb. Nickel Zinc battery pack over the
Datsun's theoretical 576 lb. Nickel Zinc battery pack. With the Datsun calculated to be
able to do 110 miles on a 720 lb, Nickel Zinc battery pack (if the curb weight stayed at
2340 lbs...doable if I jettisoned the rad stereo and motorized rear battery tray), it
should be easy to see that the super slippery Insight could hit my projected 130 miles per
charge rating. Also, with strong regen, hilly driving would still deliver very high
mileage, I would think.
> But then again, don't let that deter you! The word is out that you are a *wizard*
> at squeezing batteries into Honda sheetmetal! ;-)
Oh please, stop!!!! I can't let this stand and go uncorrected. Dave, I take it you've
never 'seen' Victor's car? Before I go on, I need to state that over the net, it's
hard to do this without sounding like I'm trashing Victor...kind of how it must sound to
others when he goes on about my stereo systems, I guess. So let me say it now....I like
Victor, he's a very smart guy, he's very kind and considerate, and he's come through for
me and others when we needed him. He's also bringing an affordable AC system to the
backyard EV converters, and that's been a huge improvement for all...thank you, Victor.
But....to call Victor a 'wizard' when it comes to battery positioning, or thought in lay
out, or execution in craftsmanship, or safety in containment, or attention to weight
balance, or loss of the car's utility, and god forbid, attention to detail, this
description couldn't be more wrong! It certainly doesn't take a wizard to throw batteries
everywhere in a car while totally destroying its functionality! For crying out loud, the
passenger seat for a while, was missing due to the big uneven hump of strewn batteries on
the floor, and even now, there is this cartoon-like seat on top of the battery heap, with
its headrest crammed against he headliner, a seat that only a Jack Russel Terrier could
sit in! It does take a wizard though to do as others have done, and make their EV project
look and feel as if it could have come from the factory that way...Ralph Merwin's Prism
comes to mind.
Not to toot my own horn, but my own Blue Meanie is an example at battery positioning
'wizardry'. I could have done as others have, by simply filling the trunk of this little
car with batteries. I could also have made the engine compartment batteries all fit in a
box over the motor, too. This would have worked, but compromises would be made...the most
obvious, would have been a loss of trunk capacity, the less obvious, would have been the
loss of 'curb appeal', finesse, detail...call it what you want, but in short, the loss of
the car's ability to make others get excited over the 'electric car' and have a desire to
have one of their own...allow me to explain.
Hiding the electric motor is something that many backyard EVers do without much thought,
after all, it works, the motor most probably won't need to be gotten to, and it's easier.
But there is great functionality in having it in clear view, especially from the
EVangelist point of view. Since the dawn of time, car nut types love to open the hood and
see what she's got under there! There's nothing better to evoke oohs and ahhs from these
types, than for them to see a gorgeously simple, cylindrical Advanced DC motor lurking in
place of a cluttered greasy gas engine with all its hoses, pumps, filters, manifolds, etc.
I knew that my every-day driver/show car EV would be made this way, but it took 'battery
wizardry' to get the job done. Instead of one simple rectangular box above the motor, I
placed two batteries on each side of the motor in their own stainless steel trays with
sturdy hold-downs. I then placed the remaining four above the motor but back against the
firewall, so that the motor is largely, in clear view. For the past 22 years now,
motorheads and regular plain folks, have been in awe when I open the hood and they can
actually see the electric motor. There are of course, many practical reasons for having
access to the motor as well, but the main reason, is to have it in clear view.
The same logic goes to the trunk are of my car. When showing an EV conversion, nothing
turns off folks more than a trunk full of batteries. They say things like, "Oh, you can't
have a normal trunk with an electric car!"...or...."Isn't this dangerous to have all these
batteries back here?" Anyway, you get the point. Additionally, I wanted my car to have a
useable trunk for my own reasons, too. Besides having it to carry grocery bags, or other
cargo, I also wanted to be able to install a false floor in the trunk to house and display
the high end car stereo system I had planned. I took real 'battery wizardry' to come up
with a hide-away motorized, remote controlled battery tray! This accomplished many
things...it made it so that battery weight was better distributed as far as for and aft
polar moment, it made it so that battery access was easy when needed, it made it so the
trunk was not compromised in any way, and lastly, it made for a super trick, super crowd
pleasing demo system!
I give these examples to hopefully, correct the notion that simply stuffing a small car
with as many batteries as possible with no regard for aesthetics, functionality, or curb
appeal, is a bad idea. I understand that Victor's main quest was to get his car's voltage
and range capacity up where he wanted it to be, and that's fine, but for others to call
his method 'wizardry', is a bit too much.
>Furthermore, the Insight has a serious space problem.
>Victor has had great success fitting batteries into his
>Civic, but if my numbers are correct, the Insight is some
>10 inches shorter than the Civic! And where would John
>put his subwoofers?
Whew....let's take each of these.
(1) The Insight DOES NOT HAVE A SPACE PROBLEM!!!!!!! To my knowledge, short of a pickup
truck, the Insight is the only super areo, factory car that comes with a gigantic,
basically square, under-the-floor battery space all ready to access, ready to easily hold
20 Optima sized batteries!
(2) Victor has 'not' had great success fitting batteries into his Civic, in fact, the car
is now dangerously over weight, has compromised handling and breaking, and is now a one
seater car....you call this great success? He has had great success with his car for 'his'
needs, so that's fine, but most folks would find a one seat car unacceptable, and most
folks would find a Civic that weighs as much as his does, way over the limit of
sensibility, too.
Alan Coconi's car comes to mind (the earliest version with Optimas piled everywhere), so
it seems no surprise that Victor has emulated this car. Though it was great to see the car
featured in Road & Track magazine with its tire-smoking ability clearly flaunted in a
positive way, it was at the same time, embarrassing to me and other EVers that such a
rolling science project was displayed in the pages of this magazine, perpetuating the myth
that EVs are only for nerdy wacko types and that the car's utility is always ruined by
'batteries everywhere'.
(3) "And where would John put his subwoofers?" Have you not read my posts? From the
beginning, I've almost jokingly, flaunted my 'ShoeBox Sub' system that tucks away in the
right rear corner of the car, under a basically unusable section of the floor, out of
sight, totally hidden, but with rear view mirror-blurring deep bass response. This compact
sub will not detour any use of the battery compartment area. Sure, there won't be room for
my custom twin 12 enclosure that my own soundoff Insight has, but there's really no need
for that excessive amount of bass power for mainstream 'normal' folks who would be more
than happy with the ShoeBox Sub's output. In fact, done the way I am advocating, even with
four of the 20 batteries down low below the storage well area, the storage space is still
useable and can be kept, though it would be about 4 inches shallower.
>
> It is not likely that the EV1 crowd will go for an EV that
> they will have to shift, or a car that does not achieve a
> reasonable front-to-rear weight balance.
First of all, my proposal wasn't ever aimed at EV-1 drivers, it was merely 'my idea' to
make a super cool, super fun, high performance EV out of an Insight...period! Yes, for
some, it has now taken on the goal to do even more, and this includes perhaps those EV-1
drivers. I would still have to disagree with Dave on this take. First off all, driven as
the EV-1 driver is used to, that is, a car that tops out at 85 mph (approx.), the electric
Insight would actually out perform the EV-1 left in 2nd gear, no shifting required!
However, for those EV-1 drivers who might have the courage to venture away from their
self-imposed speed limit of 80+ mph, they 'could' take that big chance, and 'shift' up to
3rd and experience a top end in an EV like no other streetable machine....flying along at
130 mph, I think not a single EV-1 driver would be disappointed!
As far as reasonable weight balance, the electric Insight with just 720 lbs. of batteries,
will have most of that weight centered in the car, with just a pinch over 100 lbs. of
batteries near the rear...with beefed up rear coils and the proper front sway bar, it
should handle as good or even better than the EV-1.
Hopefully, I haven't offended too many with the above.
See Ya.....John Wayland
PS: Portland's Gary Graunke has his recently aquired Insight already torn down to a glider
as this is written, and
is finding out that all I've said has been right on so far...he's not the least bit
worried about whether or not the batteries will fit, and even if I'm off a bit in the
range per charge prediction, he's going to be very happy with anything close to 100 miles
of range.
