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Discussion Starter #1
I may be taking a job that requires a longer commute and so today I began researching cars with the best gas mileage. But in doing so I also came across the following disturbing information:

Consumer complaints about Honda Insight
"The driver is receiving up to 135 milligauss (mG) at the hip, and up to 100 mG in the upper torso and head area. For comparison, my VW van measures between 1 and 2 mG. The technicians who measured the EMF advised me not to drive my Honda until this problem is fixed.

To put this into perspective, the Liburdy and Colleagues Study in 1993 found that just 12 mG stimulates the growth of estrogen-sensitive breast cancer cells. Epidemiological studies have found an increased risk of breast cancer among both men and women exposed to high electromagnetic fields at work. A study by the Natinoal Institute of Environmental Health Sciences (NIEHS) called "assessment of health effects from exposure to power line frequency electric and magnetic fields" confirms the dangers of high EMF."
http://consumeraffairs.com/automotive/h ... sight.html

Does anyone know whether the status of EMF is going to improve in later models set to come out this year or next?

Thanks in advance.
 

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what risk?

I think that if that were true we'd all have cancer from our computer monitors. Everything is dangerous. Breathing the air is dangerous. I wouldn't worry until it hits the news stands from the FDA.
 

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hap0 - every time some one posts that quote, the thread gets locked. I guess one of the mods is asleep at the wheel.

I think the risk taken by actually driving a car (any car) is actually much greater than the risk of an Insight making you sick.

If you're that concerned about it - you probably need to check emf in any car you buy. Then you also need to start checking all the appliances in your home to see how much emf emanates from them. You'll be truly amazed....
 

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Ok we're trying to take on a less delete happy moderation policy here. The talk about EMF has come up again and again, that article is full of falsehood. I guarantee most people are exposed to worst things each and every day.

So, lets stop the EMF discussion. But I'll let you guys know if I ever have problems having kids some day. :lol:
 

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The NIEHS report can be seen at http://www.niehs.nih.gov/emfrapid/html/WGReport/WorkingGroup.html
My reading of the Summary is that they found no strong evidence that electric and magnetic fields cause disease. I personally wouldn't live next to electric transmission lines, but that's because they often use herbicides on their right of way. I don't think this is a problem for the insight. If you are concerned about EMF effects then you should also measure the fields around microwaves, refrigerators, washing machines, TVs, and electic trolleys or subways. I did like the fact that he did actually make measurements.
--Walter
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Thanks

Rick said:
Ok we're trying to take on a less delete happy moderation policy here. The talk about EMF has come up again and again, that article is full of falsehood. I guarantee most people are exposed to worst things each and every day.

So, lets stop the EMF discussion. But I'll let you guys know if I ever have problems having kids some day. :lol:
Sorry I should have searched for 'emf' first. I see there are some other threads so I will give them a look. Really though, the defensive tone of some of these posts borders on almost ridicule or ad hominem. I just came across this for the first time. Wouldn't it be reasonable to have some concern??? I'm just looking into it, not promoting it for some spurious agenda...? I appreciate the link to the "working group" study though, thanks.
 

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hap0 said:
Wouldn't it be reasonable to have some concern???
Yes, but it's only reasonable to have concern in proportion to the danger, which is slim to none.

On the other hand, there's a very real danger to driving in general. It's a leading cause of death, well above cancer for non-seniors. The new IIHS side impact ratings simulates an SUV side imact, and so far every vehicle tested without side air bags has rated 'poor', except the tall, 3300 pound Jeep Wrangler (which was marginal). Remember the Insight is the lightest, smallest car you can buy, and doesn't have side airbags.

The better question is, what do you do about it? Well, you can wear a automotive helmet. They're required in every motorsport I've heard of, at least above a certain level. Although I don't have a study offhand, I'd guess they're at least as good as side airbags, and likely FAR better. They're easily available online, starting at less than $200.

Does anybody wear a helmet in a car on public roads? Not that I know of. You'd look kind of silly, and it'd mess up your 'do. If this trade-off isn't worth it, why is something orders of magnitude less life-threatening like EMF even considered?
 

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Insight 2005

Talk about being "off topic". What does this have to do with New insight arriving in 2005?????????????????

Never mind me, I'm in a bad mood.
 

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Thanks John. I really would like to know if there is news about a new Insight.

Must get an LCD screen. Every time this topic comes up I wonder if I should be wearing lead underpants sitting under this 19 inch CRT monitor. Meanwwhile, perhaps I should get out my Geiger counter and check. Do compact flourescents contain mercury? (I broke one on the carpet about a month ago.) Could chrome copper and arsenic be leaching off the pressure treated deck and infiltrating our well water? Better change my Britta filter.
 

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To put this into perspective, the Liburdy and Colleagues Study in 1993 found that just 12 mG stimulates the growth of estrogen-sensitive breast cancer cells. Epidemiological studies have found an increased risk of breast cancer among both men and women exposed to high electromagnetic fields at work. A study by the Natinoal Institute of Environmental Health Sciences (NIEHS) called "assessment of health effects from exposure to power line frequency electric and magnetic fields" confirms the dangers of high EMF."

I work at a 1080 megawatt power plant. I guess I need to advise the 78 year old man that is working there (since 1953) of the GREAT risk of him getting cancer or possibility of reproduction problems. :roll:

I will try to find out the amount of EMF in a few different locations.
 

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i've been working *twitch* in RF for 16 *twitch* years and I see *twitch* no effect *twitch*....

point being: how many things were transmitting in the 40's?

how many things are transmitting now???

EVERYTHING IS WIRELESS!!!!!!!!

but i won't effect us humans.....we are better than animals.....

embrace you EMF.
 

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My personal experiences with EMF

Guys, I understand that nobody wants to look at some invisible problem with their beloved cars. This is a huge motivation to shrug some unproven warnings off, rather than fully research the phenomenon. This is my first post, and I am sorry that I wasn't around when the whole discussion started!

Basically, I have always been somewhat "emf - sensitive", even from my childhood, when I noticed my mom turn on an electric heater in the other room. This is why I actually took my EMF meter with me when I went to test drive the Insight before the purchase. Yes, the readings were relatively high, but... You know, nothing can dissuade you if you are really excited about the car... And I bought it!

However, I have to say that it does give me slight headache when driving for more than 30 min. The feeling is of exhaustion too, and some dumb emptiness, like if you have been smacked in the head really good. So I got a better more precise EMF meter, and here's what I found, which will clarify the famous consumer complaint:

The main source of radiation seems to be the cable beneath the driver's seat, and consequently the highest reading those guys got (150 miligauss) is on the floor, while charging (seat 21, head 8.5 mG). Assist produces slightly less radiation (seat 11, head 7 mG), and when charge/assist is at 0, EMF is almost acceptable (by my subjective standards) - seat 8, head 6 mG. (By the way, all these readings are higher than anything I found in my home, except for the close proximity to the electric stove, perhaps, and 1" away from my laptop.)

You have a full right to call me paranoid, but I do actually feel the field when car goes into max regen mode.

So, I have been looking into shielding the cable under the car. Electric field is easy, and car's aluminum body does that, so it is magnetic field that we are trying to eliminate, and that's harder.

Currently I am researching different shielding materials and thicknesses, as well as positioning (under the seat, wrapping the cable, etc.). If anybody has ANY experience with all this, let's please share it here. I want to make this car I love so much stop giving me headaches!

Thanks.
 

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Prepare to get blasted for your blasphemous words. Don't you know that EMF is way less dangerous that smoking, sky diving, or vacationing in Iraq?
Personally I welcome someone who knows something technical about this subject, still likes their Insight, and may be looking into the problem with an open mind. Most folks here will just make fun of the issue each time it comes up with no valid response to the problem, other than to deny it is a problem. Please keep me informed with whatever you come up with.
 

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A lot of my professional work is in magnetics; very little in shielding, but I did design a shield once (to prevent power cables from affecting an electron microscope).

One thing you might be able to do is to twist the wires together. That makes the field from the different wires partially cancel, particularly as you get far away compared to the pitch of the twist. It might not be easy to do in practice, but if you could, it might make the field at the head location much lower.

For shielding material, you can buy expensive "mu-metal" that works well even in very thin sheets, or use cheap plain steel plates, which you can make much thicker in order to make them reasonably effective even if they aren't as good a material. You can also combine them, with a small spacer between them. In that case, it's best if you put the plain steel on the side near the source, and the mu-metal on the side you want to protect.

The best shape would be a cylinder wrapping the whole bundle of wires. But a simple plate above them will help if it's big. A plate above and a plate below would also work pretty well.

Note that depending on the meter you use, the reading may not be accurate for frequencies other than 60 Hz, and the frequency of the current in the leads to the motor is about 300-600 Hz in the 1000-2000 RPM range (according to a calculation I did a while ago and posted in this thread

Charlie
 

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You might want to take off your tires, too. Did you try your measurement experiment on any other cars that also have steel belted radials?
 

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Thanks for your posts, gentlemen.

I will stubbornly keep the serious face :-| in response to replies that radial tires have much to do with EMF. Really, it isn't my quest to discuss the degree of risk EMF might present to human health, that I do leave open.

Under excuse of hypersensitivity (as I mentioned, headache after 30 min in the car, and what I didn't mention, my max on the cell phone is 2 min!!!), I am just trying to see if the magnetic field oscilations in Insight cockpit can be lowered in intensity.

Thanks Charlie for a honest analisys here. Bunching wires together is a good idea (do you think they are actually separated down there?). Do they have to be twisted too?

I'm curious how do you calculate the current frequency - I naively assumed that it is 1 wavelength per engine revolution which would make it 33Hz for 2000rpm (/60 to get rps). Couldn't find the info on that in your other posts. In any case, the currents induced in our bodies do increase with the frequency of the EMF, so using the non-flat response meter might be appropriate here, suggesting a relative field strength to one at 60Hz (home appliance comparable).

Meanwhile, I did experiment with materials I thought are steel (metal post it board I use for fridge magnets, showel head), and none did manage to decrease the reading more than 10%! Don't know if I should go and try to get some of the expensive alloys to try with them (and what thickness).

Will keep my findings posted! Thanks for reading.

Predrag
 
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