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Everything is so partisan these days. Unfortunately, or fortunately, depending on your point of view - this isn't a blue or red issue. Emissions tampering is forbidden at the federal level. In addition to this, some states have enacted statutes barring it at the state and local level as well - meaning the fines are even steeper. That includes red states like Georgia, Tennessee and yes, Pennsylvania.
 

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Here’s my problem with emissions. The insight produces next to none. I left my car running in winter, took a nap, there was a frozen puddle of water under the tail pipe lol. Such clean emissions it’s unreal. Yet you have states like CA, NY, RI, MA that’ll fail you for having an engine light on for something that isn’t even emissions related. I got sick of it I really did. Meanwhile Bezos has endless 18 wheeler amazon trucks with soot clouds going into the air and that pos pays no taxes on anything and DOT doesn’t think about ever pulling them over? All set. Haha I decided on a domicile state and for me the best choice became SD. My insurance,liability only; at the age of 30 cost me $14 a month. No state inspections, title is $10, plate transfer is $5, no sales tax on cars bought for under $2200, no yearly excise taxes, no emissions testing. Taxes for registration which is renewed yearly are determined by age, and gross vehicle weight and it’s about $40 a year to renew it. My views are moderate I don’t think you fix a problem by taxing people in the name of global warming while the politicians pocket the money and give the rest to able bodied lazy people who sponge off the system. California is the perfect example of corruption. They tax heavier than every state but every year say they’re in debt. I buy these cars to save money in more way than just the fuel. They’ll be hard pressed to find emissions tampering especially with all my cats in working order. No engine light just looks better on the dash. If they wanted to get fancy they could do a sniff test and apples to oranges the Insight still shows less polluting gasses than your newest cars. People who understand cars know when something is wrong, an engine light is an idiot light, but it shouldn’t determine whether a car belongs on the road or not. It’s counter productive really. These auto manufacturers produce cars which creating them causes a lot of pollution yet a car with an engine light is worse how? It’s liberal logic, the only reason people pay these tyrannical taxes are because they’ve been brainwashed into thinking the money is going to be used to combat global warming, when in reality it’s spent foolishly and used to line the pockets of corrupt politicians. Beating a dead horse but I prefer to do as I please with a car I own and pay insurance on. No epa or dot should be able to tell me what I’m doing wrong when there’s much worse on the road doing much worse. So who wants to sell me that box that Peter designed? I’m getting rid of my DC converter, hybrid battery, bcm and mcm and reclaiming lost trunk space on at least 2 of my insights. The other 2 will remain hybrid. I offset the other 2 with this method yes? Lol
 

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I understand that removing the hybrid system is "less evil" than a lot of other things you can do to a lot of other cars, like catalytic converter and DPF deletes. And I sympathize with a lot of your other gripes, though I'm having trouble thinking of a CEL that isn't ultimately emissions related. The law is actually very fair in the sense that emissions standards are not retroactive - the goal is maintaining the standards that were present at the time of vehicle manufacture. It's not hard to see the problem we would have if only brand new cars complied with emissions and it was all downhill from there. I've run across a great many Insights who's exhaust would gas you out in a matter of minutes....

Are you going to replace the expensive LAF O2 sensor with an Arduino when that goes out?

Anyway, these laws have been on the books for 30 years, they are well established and prosecuted. The Insight isn't your car if you have to do illegal things to drive it.

Shrug. My opinion.

What if we went the other direction? How cheap would an IMA battery have to be in order to consider that? Genuinely curious.
 

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I won’t disagree there. I would end up spending the $$ on the o2 sensor but that’s because Lean burn is a real nightmare with a broken one.

I have many different sticks and cells to rebuild and recondition my ima batteries it’s just this CVT car is for a customer who does not want the complications of an ima system. He is in Florida another emissions free state and I could sell him a good tested battery no problem but the real issue is when the battery inevitably goes bad then he wouldn’t be able to or want to bypass it. I don’t disagree with your prices, I think they’re beyond fair especially with your warranty and the fact you aren’t using regular sticks. I had spoken to Ryan before he was let go about the possibility of purchasing a battery from you guys rather than just selling my junction boards and empty cases to you. I can say that idea is still on my mind too. I just have to find the perfect insight with bad battery first. Anyways how much I’d want to spend on such a thing is something to think about but I do know you’re the best at what you do. So when reconditioning cells and resetting packs no longer works for me, I’m going to end up buying a battery from you.
 

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We've sold people "emissions passer" batteries before, quite a few times actually - but usually to local people, since shipping gets expensive. Still, I'm wondering if this is something that more people would be interested in.

It's just hard because naturally, they're not very good batteries. But maybe we could do real cheap, like shipping plus $150 or something. I guess an Arduino is hard to compete with...

I know it's easy for people to say "Well of course that's my opinion, I sell batteries". I'm not sure I would be totally down with the Arduino thing even otherwise. But it's hard to say. After looking at the yearly lists of prosecutions that the EPA publishes, I definitely wouldn't be selling them....

The one thing I'll concede is that this will probably keep a few more Insights on the road. Maybe they will eventually be converted back to full operation. Hard to do that after they're a 2' formed square of metal.....
 

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I can understand them going after VW for what they were doing but with the insight scene becoming smaller and smaller I feel like they’d be wasting their time and resources trying to come down on us. I’m curious about an ima bypass that allows you to rev over 4000 Rpms. It seems Peter has one but he doesn’t seem to want to sell in the states due to the epa.

Seems genius.

You get rid of the dc converter
All the computers
The junction board
Battery

Then you install a simple board to bypass the ima
And an aftermarket dc converter

This is a picture I found on here but can’t remember where it came from
 

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They don't just go after big companies, though admittedly it is rare that they go after end users.


Many hours of bathroom reading there. ;) Lots of "Tuners" and such getting knocks these days...
 

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I'm having trouble thinking of a CEL that isn't ultimately emissions related.
Had to chime-in Eli. My Subaru Baja 5-speed manual wouldn't pass Chicago emissions because there was a CEL light the "neutral position switch" was not working. Never heard of a neutral position switch in a 15 year old manual. Try explaining that to a bureaucrat.
 

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A bit of a thread hijack there Eli. I don't really see the Arduino as an emissions Bypass device. It does nothing to alter the OBDII directly or any other emissions devices. The vehicle will still trip all of the usual emissions related codes (such as P0420, etc). Selling a "pass emissions battery" is on par with the Arduino device- ultimately both leave you with a non working IMA system. The fact that the state will fail you for ANY code at all is the reason for a need for a product like this. The system is far from perfect- if you have enough money and time you can get just about any part/modification to be CARB/EPA approved- its just well outside the scope of the average person. I should know- I used to work as a mechanical engineer at a very high end classic car modification company and we were able to get the engines producing 2x the stock power (and henceforth, emissions) output CARB approved for use on the street. I'm all for keeping things legal but the bureaucracy favors the wealthy and IMHO OBDII being the basis for emissions pass/fail has led to significantly more vehicles in landfills than in years prior.

To answer your question... How cheap does the IMA Battery have to be.... that is hard to say. Personally speaking- I don't want an original IMA Battery. I want a lithium cell with 5X the capacity in the same form factor, and I will eventually go down that route. Your product is an excellent service to the Insight community, but for some the negatives of the older technology outweigh the benefits. For the average person driving 10-15 thousand miles annually, by the time they will see their return on the IMA battery (in regards to fuel savings), they will be due for a new battery. Granted, the car is immensely better to drive with the assist functioning, but, for many, they will forgo those benefits because they purchased their Insight purely for economical reasons.

An aside and some food for thought... technically speaking- altering the vehicle to be more fuel efficient (such as installing higher capacity batteries) is still "modifying/tampering with the OEM emissions systems"... ;)
 

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@Rocan After seeing all these posts today I did some reading on all this.

As far as I can tell, replacing the IMA battery with a new Lithium setup is definitely not a violation because the primary purpose of putting in lithium is not to "defeat an emissions control device." In fact putting in lithium batteries doesn't do anything with respect to that. Moreover, the emissions of the vehicle are NOT negatively impacted.

You're allowed to do engine swaps as long as the engine is same model year or newer. Batteries could probably be considered the same kind of thing. And the batteries we are putting in are definitely newer and better.
 

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@Rocan After seeing all these posts today I did some reading on all this.

As far as I can tell, replacing the IMA battery with a new Lithium setup is definitely not a violation because the primary purpose of putting in lithium is not to "defeat an emissions control device." In fact putting in lithium batteries doesn't do anything with respect to that. Moreover, the emissions of the vehicle are NOT negatively impacted.

You're allowed to do engine swaps as long as the engine is same model year or newer. Batteries could probably be considered the same kind of thing. And the batteries we are putting in are definitely newer and better.
Just because the emissions of the vehicle are not negatively impacted does not meant the modification is technically legal. It will vary depending on what state you are in, but if you were in CA, any modification without a CARB Sticker = instant inspection failure. You do not necessarily have to be defeating an emission device to fail an inspection. As far as the government is concerned, any discrepancy from OEM standard, unless approved by CARB/EPA, is just that, a discrepancy that cannot be accounted for unless tested.
 

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Rocan:
Please include your Location in your profile, as ALL G1 Insighters have done.
Thank You.
 

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Rocan:
Please include your Location in your profile, as ALL G1 Insighters have done.
Thank You.
I will do so when I get home from work- Company privacy settings prevent Google from finding my location at work.


Now... for the sake of this thread... can we continue this discussion elsewhere and get back on topic?
 

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Epa infuriates me. Money grab savages. Anyways I’ll be buying an arduino because I understand there’s limp mode which prevents lean burn and that arduino fixes this. With some hope I’ll buy what peter designed in England by asking a foreign friend overseas to purchase it for me. Seems like a great alternative to arduino and a cool looking room saving design.
 

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Limp mode is a myth. I have photos showing that you can get lean burn with P1449 IMA module deterioration and with the IMA completely removed. (As measured with OBDIIC&C and with a ScanGauge II that was programmed to detect lean burn.)

@Rocan:
  • I'm in Georgia not Cali. Georgia is not a CARB state.
  • I looked it up earlier. The law said making something with the primary purpose to defeat an emissions control device is a crime. LTO battery replacement doesn't affect any emissions control devices in any way. The stock BCM and MCM remain in the IMA bay plugged into the stock wire harness, connected to the ECM. The only thing that's different is the type of batteries they are hooked up to.
  • Some people run the "BCM Interceptor" which spoofs a higher state of charge so they can use the extra capacity of the upgraded batteries. This is not "tampering with//defeating an emissions control device" because this does NOT prevent a DTC from being thrown. I don't have this modification regardless.
 

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Had to chime-in Eli. My Subaru Baja 5-speed manual wouldn't pass Chicago emissions because there was a CEL light the "neutral position switch" was not working. Never heard of a neutral position switch in a 15 year old manual. Try explaining that to a bureaucrat.
That's a good one, I agree.

Just to be clear, these kits are for "OFF ROAD USE ONLY"
The "Off Road Use Only" disclaimer does not actually work in a court of law.

 

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Eli has highlighted precisely why I don't sell my design... information wants to be free, though, and thanks to free market capitalism, I've enjoyed watching others sell a finished product that I myself wouldn't want to risk selling.
 

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....and thanks to free market capitalism, I've enjoyed watching others sell a finished product that I myself wouldn't want to risk selling.
Actually, if this were playing out according to quote "free market capitalism," you'd have a patent and others would be paying you royalties from the share of profits left over after they reinvested most of it in production. Which is to say, there would be no Arduino mod.
 
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