Honda Insight Forum banner

1 - 19 of 19 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
20 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
I GOT MY '05 M/T INSIGHT 14 MONTHS AGO WHEN
I STARTED A NEW JOB THEY REQUIRED A LONG COMMUTE .

SINCE THEN I HAVE PUT 23.000 MILES ON IT AND CONSISTENTLY GOTTEN
OVER 60mpg . I DID PUT IN A NEW IMA BATTERY 6 MONTHS AGO

IT HAS 180,000 ON IT NOW & I HAVE BUMPED UP THE LIFETIME mpg
AVERAGE TWICE TO 56.1 .

AND THEN THE CHECK ENGINE LIGHT CAME ON ....
THE "MAINTENANCE REQUIRED" LIGHT SOON ACCOMPANIED IT .

HERE IN NC IF YOU DON'T PASS INSPECTION , YOU CAN'T RENEW YOUR REGISTRATION AND YOU CAN'T PASS INSPECTION WITH A CHECK ENGINE LIGHT ON .

SO I HAVE BEEN TINKERING WITH IT FOR A FEW MONTHS NOW
TRYING TO EXTINGUISH THE BLASTED LIGHTS .

THE CODES SAID THE '02 SENSOR IS THE CULPRIT .
I REPLACED THEM ONE AT A TIME USING DENSO FOR THE UPSTREAM
AND CENTER . I WOUND UP GETTING A WALKER FOR THE DOWNSTREAM .

LIGHT STILL ON .

I TOOK IT TO A LOCAL SHOP HERE IN RALEIGH WHO ADVERTISES
AND EXPERTISE IN HYBRIDS . THEY CHARGED ME $150 TO REPLACE
THE GAS CAP & SAID THE LIGHT WAS OUT BUT IT WAS STILL ON
WHEN I STARTED THE CAR .

I GOT THEM TO READ THE CODE BEFORE I LEFT AND THEY SAID IT
THAT IT WAS FOR THE DOWNSTREAM O2 SENSOR .

I HAVE NOW REPLACED THE DOWNSTREAM ONCE AGAIN .
CLEARED THE CODES AND THE CHECK ENGINE LIGHT WAS OUT
FOR ABOUT TWO SECONDS AND ONCE AGAIN CAME BACK TO HAUNT ME .

I AM ALREADY DRIVING THE CAR ILLEGALLY . IF I CAN'T FIX THIS
I WILL HAVE TO SELL IT .

IT HAS BEEN A GREAT CAR THAT HAS BOTH SAVED & COST
ME A LOT OF MONEY . IT STARTS INSTANTLY , RUNS GREAT
GOOD HEAT & AIR AND GETS WEEKLY mpg AVERAGES IN THE 60's

I CAN'T IMAGINE IT's A BAD CAT . THE FUEL EFFICIENCY WOULD SUFFER .
ANY SUGGESTIONS WOULD BE GREATLY APPRECIATED .
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
93 Posts
The shop needs to warranty their work as they did not fix your problem and still charged you money


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
610 Posts
If you go to most auto parts stores, they will let you borrow a code reader, or you can buy one at Harbor Freight or even Wal-Mart pretty cheap. Tell us the exact codes.

If you can make it to Frederick MD for the maintenance day on June 1, we can take a look at it.

It may be several things that are working together contributing to the problem.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,421 Posts
Blink the codes!

(IC WAS KIND ENOUGH TO DROP MY YELLING ALL CAPS TO SENTENCE CASE, WHY IT NO WORK FOR YOU, RIM? AH... NO EXCLAMATION MARK)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
610 Posts
Also, let us know the part numbers of the sensors you have installed. (So maybe it was you who bought one of the three upstream Densos that were on Amazon!)

You will read in the forums that NGK is the OEM manufacturer for the upstream sensor, but that is for the 00-early 01. For late 01 -06, it probably is Denso. I bought a Bosch but it was a repackaged Denso and not the same Denso so it didn't work.

I have an 04 and Frederick would be a good place to do A/B tests swapping several parts to isolate the problem.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,724 Posts
I GOT MY '05 M/T INSIGHT 14 MONTHS AGO WHEN .............

AND THEN THE CHECK ENGINE LIGHT CAME ON ....

Normally that indicates it's time to change the oil.

THE "MAINTENANCE REQUIRED" LIGHT SOON ACCOMPANIED IT .

Changing the oil is a maintenance task.

THE CODES SAID THE '02 SENSOR IS THE CULPRIT .

What gage was used to show the code? Autozone will usually read them for free.

I REPLACED THEM ONE AT A TIME USING DENSO FOR THE UPSTREAM
AND CENTER . I WOUND UP GETTING A WALKER FOR THE DOWNSTREAM .

The '01-1/2 to '06 cars have three O2 sensors. From looking at some of the illustrated parts drawings the 2nd and 3rd sensors should be changed as a pair.

LIGHT STILL ON .

I HAVE NOW REPLACED THE DOWNSTREAM ONCE AGAIN .
CLEARED THE CODES AND THE CHECK ENGINE LIGHT WAS OUT
FOR ABOUT TWO SECONDS AND ONCE AGAIN CAME BACK TO HAUNT ME .

Which sensor are you calling the "downstream" (#2 or #3)?

I CAN'T IMAGINE IT's A BAD CAT . THE FUEL EFFICIENCY WOULD SUFFER .
ANY SUGGESTIONS WOULD BE GREATLY APPRECIATED .
Have you changed the oil after the maintenance light came on?

From what I've seen, a bad cat has very little if any affect on mpg unless it clogs the exhaust system. My car had a bad cat and it really didn't change the mpg when I got a used 1st cat from a CVT that made the cat code go away.

And my "bad" cat did not throw a code when put on the parts car that my present cat came from.
 

·
Hypermiler
Joined
·
3,650 Posts
Ditto per ol'rowdy: mntc rqd light begins blinking around 6500 miles, and goes on steady at about 7500 miles suggesting an oil change. Easily reset per the owners manual. (dash trip buttons must be functional.)

Ditto per SKeith, blink the code(s). He lists the method in his signature. Easy diy. Here's a link to a spreadsheet by AbCaRed00 that lists almost any code the car will set.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
20 Posts
Discussion Starter #8
Service light out , check engine is not

The downstream 02 sensor i installed
is a walker products # 250-24664

it says it is for a manual transmission car .
( why in the world does that matter ? )

would it make a difference to use a ngk or denso ?
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,421 Posts
Thank you for not yelling.

I don't remember all the details, but MT and CVT use different O2 sensors and there's some variation in years.

Why the difference? Because MT has lean burn. CVT does not. Probably matters.

When it comes to things like O2 sensors, coils, etc., I don't go dealer, but I don't scrape-the-bottom-of-the-barrel. I usually try to buy the OE equivalent, i.e., if Denso, Hitachi, NGK/NTK makes the OE part, I try to find that manufacturer's equivalent.

Personally, it may not matter one bit, but until you put on an OEM equivalent part, I can't rule out the replacement part is just not up to the task.

I like to use rockauto.com to help establish the OE part as they usually list it.

The Walker you mentioned is just listed as "downstream" for MT.

Rockauto lists NTK as the OE manufacturer and identifies the NTK 24429 for downstream after first cat and 24430 for downstream after second cat. The 24430 is the equivalent to the Walker you used.

Per my first reply, you need to blink the codes and get back with us. You've replace 3 O2 sensor based on:

"I GOT THEM TO READ THE CODE BEFORE I LEFT AND THEY SAID IT
THAT IT WAS FOR THE DOWNSTREAM O2 SENSOR . "

You have it within your power to get your own information, and blinking the codes is typically more powerful than what you get with consumer code readers.

Help us help you. We're flying blind here. As it stands, the car is trying to tell you what's wrong, but you're not listening.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
20 Posts
Discussion Starter #10
Blinking codes ?

Other than power , what is the difference
between blinking codes & consumer codes ?
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,421 Posts
A single code can have multiple "subcodes" indicating different problems. Consumer readers just pull the code.

BLinking them gives you the specific "subcode".

All you need is the ability to follow simple directions, a paperclip or other means of shorting two pins and the ability to count and record long/slow blinks of the check engine light.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
610 Posts
The downstream 02 sensor i installed
is a walker products # 250-24664

it says it is for a manual transmission car .
( why in the world does that matter ? )

would it make a difference to use a ngk or denso ?
Hi Rimspoke,

Background:
1) our later model cars have a somewhat different setup regarding these sensors than cars built before late 2001. Some of those differences are:
- the "upstream" sensor, which Honda uses to measure the air:fuel ratio immediately after it leaves the engine, changed. There is little documented about the change. The old and new versions are not interchangeable (and, incidentally, neither are the ECUs that they connect to) because the measurement circuit is completely different.required I have read that the new type has a longer life than the old.
- We believe that the original supplier for the old type is NGK and for the new type is Denso.
- This matters because there have been a number of reports of non-Honda sensors not working correctly. I own one of these: I bought a Bosch sensor sold as being the correct replacement. This new sensor, after the ECU's learning period, caused the engine to lag and throw a code (check engine light). Why? I am still working that out, and have some theories. But importantly, the Bosch sensor had a sleeve over it that, when removed, revealed that it was a Denso. But the numbers on it were not the same as those for the Densos which ship with our cars - they matched those for a different Honda. And this matters because our cars run especially lean, and I think the sensors needed to have a wider sensing range than most cars. So when someone says "buy the NGK" they mean, "I have a 2000, and we think the NGK part is the OEM part and is correctly specified, so you won't have this problem of a part that doesn't actually have the same electrical performance". Since you have a late 2001+ car, the advice to "buy an NGK" does not apply, but the advice to buy the same part specified for the car does. I believe this is a specific Denso, and I have one on order which I will post on when I have tested it in my 2004.
- The downstream sensor setup changed as well. The downstream sensors are different than the upstream as they exist for a very different reason. The upstream sensor is used to correct the engine fuel mixture and must have a very wide sensing range to sense the very lean operating modes when the car is most efficient. The downstream sensors are placed behind the catalytic converters and exist to detect whether or not the catalytic converter is still consuming remaining oxygen to break down hydrocarbons. This requires a much narrower range sensor which is much cheaper.
- The older cars used only one downstream sensor, behind the first catalytic converter. The newer cars add a second downstream sensor behind the second catalytic converter. Why did Honda add a second cat monitoring sensor? No one knows, but being able to sense the failure of emissions components is government requirement; the car has two catalytic converters and they were only monitoring one.

Although our later model cars have three "oxygen sensors", II treat the first as a different sensor from the others because it has a completely different function and operates completely differently. You will hear it referred to as a "wideband sensor" or "air/fuel" or "A/F" or 'AF" or "LAF" sensor. The downstream sensors will be called "narrowband" or "oxygen" sensors.

Back to your car: Please visit an AutoZone or Advance Auto or O'Reillys and ask them to come out to the parking lot with their code scanner and show you how to scan the codes. Then report the codes read back to us. And keep in mind that it may take the car the better part of an hour and 20-30/miles or more of driving to adjust after a part is changed. And that someone replacing a sensor needs to determine if there is an engine problem like a coolant leak, because coolant will ruin a sensor, as will certain kinds of silicon gasket material, lubricant sprays, and fuel additives.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,311 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
20 Posts
Discussion Starter #15
Still glowing ..

I put another downstream sensor in the car .
( three times is supposed to be the charm )

this time i used the denso 234-4954 .
I got it from rock auto & they said it was the last one the had !

All buttoned up , reconnect the power , start it
and the light goes out , eureka !

Then 10 seconds later , it comes back on . Bummer .
I will drive it the next couple of days and see if
it rethinks the light thing .

I hate new cars .
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
93 Posts
So do you have 2 O2 sensors or 3 on your car I see 3 for the 05 mt G1


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,421 Posts
I REPLACED THEM ONE AT A TIME USING DENSO FOR THE UPSTREAM
AND CENTER . I WOUND UP GETTING A WALKER FOR THE DOWNSTREAM .

LIGHT STILL ON .
I had trouble reading while he was yelling too...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
93 Posts
So you replaced all 3 well did you check for problems with wiring to the ecm from all the sensors


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
1 - 19 of 19 Posts
Top