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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Here is a mod for those who wish they could get Auto Stop every time in heavy stop and go traffic or in line at the drive-thru. When there is a lot of stop and go traffic, I find myself leaving a large enough gap in front of me then start off a little later than normal so I can get the car up to 8 MPH just so AS will work again. But that method wastes more gas starting out that way and probably makes others think "what is this clown doing?"...I have looked at the FAS mods performed in the past but it appears like it may not be suitable for the CVT model. Please review the post "FAS with CVT Insight" ( http://www.insightcentral.net/community/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=7418 ) for the reasons why.

I do understand people have done the FAS mod and activate it with some type of switch. The FAS is in my opinion more like a Forced Stall with automatic restart but you manually have to activate it. Since the car really does fuel cutoff anyway while coasting, my plan was just to "convince" the ECM to do a real Auto Stop every time in heavy stop and go traffic and the drive thru without having to "really" go above 8MPH each time. Plus, my goal is for the driver not to have to hit any button or do anything fancy for activation. Just set it and forget it :lol:

Perhaps one way to do this would be to simulate what I do in traffic. We already have a wire from the ECM called ENGRDY (pin A2 engine ready signal) that is 12V when the engine is running and less than 1V when in AS. What if we had a circuit (initiated by ENGRDY) that would generate 0v and 5V pulses to match the specs of what 9MPH would be like on the VSS wire. The VSS signal going to the ECM would be swapped (just for a few seconds) with this signal to simulate that the car has gone over 8MPH. The relay that would switch the VSS would only operate for about 3 seconds (each time ENGRDY signal goes low) then shut off and default back to the real VSS signal back to the ECM.

Well, the circuit was built and the good news is that IT WORKS as planned ;) No buttons to press, no sequence of actions to perform, just drive normally

I took the plunge and cut the VSS wire at the ECM (I had already tapped into that wire for cruise control so I made the cut so that the cruise control would always receive the real signal.) The wiring connections (VSS IN , VSS OUT) could be physcially connected to each each other if I removed the circuit (sort of like a built-in loopback). It will be placed immediately in front of the cup holders under the center console. My neighborhood probably thought that I had car problems when starting and stopping every few feet but I didn't care because it worked great...

It looks like there are several variations of AS programmed into the ECM. Here are the five that I am aware of the can be repeated at will (once the engine is warmed up enough for a normal AS):

1) Take your foot off the brake from AS at complete stop, go 0-1 MPH for only 1-2 seconds (without touching the gas pedal), press the brake to complete stop, will AS within about 15 seconds. This one takes the longest to happen but it will do it.

2) Take your foot off the brake from AS at complete stop, go 1-3 MPH for longer than 15 seconds (without touching the gas pedal), press the brake to complete stop, will AS within about 3 seconds.

3) Take your foot off the brake from AS at complete stop, go up to 4 MPH (without touching the gas pedal), press the brake to complete stop, will AS within about 3 seconds.

4) Take your foot off the brake from AS at complete stop, go up to 5 MPH (use the gas pedal slightly), press the brake, once speed drops towards 4 MPH, AS will happen while still rolling.

5) Find a very slight downward road where you can maintain 4 MPH without using the gas pedal. Take your foot off the brake from AS at complete stop, coast up to 4 MPH (without touching the gas pedal), press the brake at 4MPH, AS will immediately happen while rolling, realese your foot from the brake while still going 4 MPH (engine restarts), put your foot back on the brake a second later, AS will happen again. This is the coolest one to try because you can induce the AS while rolling at 4 MPH in about 1 second each time you cycle the brake.

Before this mod, I could not do any of these at speeds below 8 MPH. Now I am able to pull up right next to my garage door, come to AS, use the garage door opener, pull into a single car garage, go back into AS once inside. 8)

Here are some pics:

The initial circuit on bread board for testing:
http://74.92.0.194/misc/insight/vss-bypass/bread-board-s.jpg

The final circuit built:
http://74.92.0.194/misc/insight/vss-bypass/circuit-top-view02-s.jpg
This board is so small (only 1.8 x 2.8 inches ) that it fits under the center console in front of the cup holders with plenty of room to spare. Since I had extra room, I put some insulating material surrounding the cup holders (underneath) so I did not hear any relay clicks (since it so quiet during AS).

The bracket made of aluminum (top view):
http://74.92.0.194/misc/insight/vss-bypass/bracket-top-view-s.jpg

The bracket and on / off switch (side view):
http://74.92.0.194/misc/insight/vss-bypass/bracket-side-view-s.jpg

Everything installed:
http://74.92.0.194/misc/insight/vss-bypass/installed-top-view-s.jpg

The VSS override circuit and MIMA_L circuit:
http://74.92.0.194/misc/insight/vss-bypass/VSS-and-MIMA-s.jpg

This has been tested on the CVT Insight.

A suggested name for this mod is "Low Speed Auto Stop" (thanks Mike ;) ) so that name has been included in my signature.

JoeCVT = Just your average CVT owner
 

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ooo ooo ooo!*raises hand and jumps out of seat like a 5 year old being offered candy*

i want LSAS!!

this is something ive always hated...when i cant get into auto stop when i want...in stop and go traffic, at the drive through(which I rarely go to anyway), in my driveway, but also...after reversing, if you dont go far forward, you cant get AS and that bugs me more than anything!

Joe, send me a PM if you might be interested in working with me to get this set up on my insight, thanks :)
 

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Discussion Starter #3
ikhoudvanu199 said:
...but also...after reversing...
I just sent you a PM...

I haven't checked out Auto Stop in reverse before...In order for this mod to work while in reverse, you would have to be able to achieve a normal Auto Stop (probably after 8 MPH in reverse)...I know the ECM and the speedometer can show speed in MPH in reverse so it would be up to the ECM programming in order for it to work in reverse. If it would do it normally, this mod should still work at the lower speed in reverse then. The key is that all conditions (besides the 8MPH speed) still have to be met. Conditions like the car is warmed up enough, A/C not on Auto, warm enough outside, etc... The last one about being warm enough outside is why I also recommend moving the outside temp sensor (behind the front bumper) inwards towards the middle of the engine. The sensor move can be done without cutting wires and can be located right beside the MAP sensor.

I'll check the Auto Stop in reverse later on today ;)

JoeCVT = Just your average CVT owner
 

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if it works after, say, reversing into a spot, ill be very impressed :)

but what I meant was, say for example doing a 3 point turn on a side street and parking, where you would be in reverse, then in 1st(or D) for a short amount of time to park on the side...then sitting there for a few moments without wanting to turn the car off(ive been in this situation alot, picking people up from their houses, haha) i would imagine this would work perfectly in this case

thanks, i sent you a PM back
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Ok....Now the neighbors are really looking at me and wondering what's up :oops: I tried the Auto Stop going in reverse and switching between drive and reverse (like in a 3 point turn)...None of these work with or without this mod in a CVT...Auto Stop will not happen when shifted into "Low" "S mode" or "Reverse" or any combination.....Only if you stay in "Drive" (for CVTs)....I have no way of checking what the manual transmission would do but I do know from looking at the manuals that the MT only has a neutral switch and reverse switch (perhaps just for the reverse lights) so there still may be a chance that AS in a 3 point turn can work in a MT version.

I forgot to mention in the earlier post why I wanted an LED indicator or where I installed it. On a CVT model, the P R N D L panel by the shift lever is lit up (viewable at night)...My 14V 1.4 watt light bulb burnt out so I bought an LED version on eBay and installed it...This light does not use the dimmer function and does not go to the ECM so there shouldn't be any problems using an LED for this area. The normal light bulb is inserted from the side of the unit (into a black plastic casing so I knew there may be some problem with the LED displaying light from 90 degrees off angle. I removed the panel then inserted a white casing to reflect more light. I made the casing smaller than the original in such a way that the "L -LOW" will not illuminate when the lights are turned on (Only P R N D)...I then drilled a hole under the "L" portion of the casing and pressure fit a green LED that only lights when the 9 MPH override relay is activated (about 3 seconds each time). This lets me know that the circuit is really working properly since I can't hear the relay anymore (due to the insulation). I just wanted to make sure the NPN that activates the relay and the LED does its job properly and does not get stuck supplying constant ground to the relay (that would be sending 9 MPH to the ECM all of the time). Plus, it looks pretty cool at night 8)

In fact, now that it is dark out...I may go for a ride ;)

JoeCVT = Just your average CVT owner
 

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I like it!

Autostop is one of the coolest things about the insight but is a nuisance in roadworks and heavy traffic, and we have plenty of both those around Gloucester and on the M25.

I will definitely give this a try once I have sorted out the my battery pack.

thanks for posting this.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Ccaptain24 said:
I will definitely give this a try once I have sorted out the my battery pack. thanks for posting this.
I think you will really like this mod ;) The circuit does not contain too many components so it shouldn't take long to build. After installed, it works on its own without driver intervention (no switches or buttons to push).

JoeCVT = Just your average CVT owner
 

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Wow, this is really amazing. I have so much respect for you, joecvt!

...more than just your average CVT owner! :)
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Thank you Artric :)

It has helped save gas in stop-and-go traffic where you would normally have to get back to 8 MPH for the next AutoStop....Great for drive-thru's as well. I can move forward just a few feet and the car will perform an AutoStop within a few seconds....If you go at least 3-4 MPH, it will AutoStop immediately - all automatically. No longer have to reach that 8MPH mark.....

I wish more people would be willing to try this mod.....If I knew of a few people that wanted a built circuit, I could make some cheaper compared to a single person asking how much. Not sure how the MT model will do with this mod but I know for sure the CVT can benefit. I also think it may work on the Gen2 CVT Insight but I would need to see the Electrical Manual before knowig for sure.

JoeCVT = Just your average CVT owner
 

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i dont think it would help MT owners much, because its easy to get autostop again and again even in stop&go traffic by putting the shifter into the next gear before going to neutral and lifting the clutch pedal. This trick, tricks the computer into auto-stopping every time, even after just moving a couple of feet.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Thanks 02Insight,

Perhaps the Gen2 Insight could see an improvement in the amount of AutoStops in stop-n-go traffic. Perhaps when I get more time this summer, I'll build another board and see if a Gen2 owner wants to install it / test it so we could get some feedback.

JoeCVT = Just your average CVT owner
 

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Yeah, I just don't see many scenarios where it would help me. I certainly know what you mean, about not getting to 7 mph (I get auto stop after 7, rather than 8mph) and then losing autostop. It just doesn't happen to me much. If it is going to be a long-ish stop, i just hit neutral while im roling and cut the engine with the key. For someone like me, even at $50 it just wouldn't make sense. It would be probably two years before I would be in traffic enough to recoupe the cost in gas savings.
 

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Hi Joecvt,
Cool idea and implementation. I always hate it when my 5 speed will not autostop if I have to move 10 feet and stop again. This should work on the 5 speed from what you have described.
02Insight, that s a nice way to fool it into autostop, I did not know about that and will try it out today

What people would really like for the CVT's is an any speed FAS. Put it in neutral, press a momentary button to kill the fuel, and maybe if you told it the speed was 5 MPH, the engine would stay off?
Sounds like you are almost there.
Your the guy to figure this out, so go for it, and if you want a hand, give me a call or swing buy.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Thanks Mike :)

If you recall, this LSAS came to life from your earlier converstations about FAS for CVT Insights....The MT has some advantages over the CVT of things that you can do to keep AutoStop going (as 02Insight pointed out) even if you don't exceed 8MPH again....Also, from my understanding (since I don't own one), the MT can go into AS at 19MPH.....CVT's only go into AS at just below 5MPH and only if you are in Drive mode (non-sport mode).....Once you are in AS, you can switch to Neutral and the car will not start back up. If you switch back to any other gear from Neutral, the car will start back up.....

Also, AS will only happen in a CVT when you slow down to just below 5MPH with your foot on the brake....Once you take your foot off the brake (I think even if you put it in Neutral before doing so), the car will start back up....

I think the thing I fear that could be a problem with higher speed FAS on a CVT has to to do with pulley ratio position at the time of FAS and also start clutch wear and tear.

Normally, as you slow down, the CVT is changing the pulley positions so that the metal belt is in the proper ratio when you start back up. Let's say if you were able to trick the CVT into a FAS at 25MPH and that it would also disengage the start clutch (so it would be more free wheeling like being neutral). So if you keep the engine off all the way to the stop, at this point, the CVT belt is in a very bad / wrong ratio and the belt pulleys can not allow a ratio change until the engine is spinning again. The Transmission Control Module probably knows that belt is now in the wrong ratio by a large factor but can't do anything about it. When you start off again, the pulleys may try to put the belt in the proper ratio while you are trying to drive away. That may put a lot of inital stess on the belt, cause more start clutch slippage and possibly make initial driveability takeoff difficult......

Basically, over the long term, repeated action may damage the internals of the CVT and that costs mega bucks to repair.....

All I am doing right now is a split second after the engine starts back up, a fake 9MPH is sent to the ECM VSS wire (the speedometer, climate control, and IMA system still get the real VSS). It sends the 9MPH for about 2.5 seconds and that is enough to trick the ECM into "thinking" that you drove beyond that magical 8MPH threshold so slowing back down will allow for another AS. That next AS happens immediately if you reach 4MPH and put your foot on the brake.....Those are the coolest...But if you only reach like 2MPH for real then stop again and keep your foot on the brake, it will take about 10 seconds of idle, then shut off.....You always have to keep the foot on the brake though.

So actually, this mod does not change what happens to the car while approaching AS and the actual AS itself the way Honda designed it.....It just tells the ECM after immediately coming out of an AS that it is OK to go ahead and do another one even though you never really reached that 8MPH threshold and it will keep on doing it over and over....

There are some rules for continued AS success if you don't exceed 4MPH....You should not just take your foot off the brake and "creep forward" like normal automatics do. The CVT allows this but the ECM wants to see you press on the gas pedal a bit while that fake signal is being sent. You just need slight pedal pressure so the TPS voltage changes enough.....If you don't do that then you get no AS when you come to a stop.....Also in order for the LSAS to work...you always have to come out of an AS first.....(It only knows to reset itself from the change in voltage from the ENGRDY wire - the one that tells your instrument gauge to blink the Idle stop light).....

Anyway....I am rambling on.....I want to build another set of these boards again sometime in the next few months. I want to try the photo etching PCB method instead of manually making solder traces (takes a long time per board)....I already have designed a layout. If I get the hang of it, the boards could be made much quicker so they would cost a lot less to make.....I just want to learn to do the etching anyway and if I do sell one, it would look much nicer and be less expensive :)

Anyway, if I was able to make like a very small batch of them like 5-10, it would be helpful to see how it would work in an MT Insight....I know it works in 4 CVT Insights so far.

So Mike, I can swing by one day and if you are willing to install one then check it out to see if it works for you, and if it does, its yours and it will only cost you a soda :) It is the least I can do with all of the hard work you have done with MIMA, IMA battery stuff and other ideas that you bring to this forum.

JoeCVT = Just your average CVT owner
 

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Discussion Starter #16
It may take a month or so.....currently going through some stuff with a former business partner but after that, should have more time on my hands to order the electronics and build something.....

I recently purchased a 15W solar panel that will replace my 5W panel I had in the back hatch glass area to power some cargo vent cooling fans.....So hopefully I will have an upgraded solar panel and larger fan setup installed compared to what I have been using.

I'll give you a call or send you a PM after I assemble some boards :)

JoeCVT = Just your average CVT owner
 

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I
I recently purchased a 15W solar panel that will replace my 5W panel I had in the back hatch glass area to power some cargo vent cooling fans.....So hopefully I will have an upgraded solar panel and larger fan setup installed compared to what I have been using.
JoeCVT = Just your average CVT owner
Which panel did you end up using, Joe? I'm still waiting for a quote on a custom sized (long and narrow) 15W panel to fit better in the top of the window.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Which panel did you end up using, Joe? I'm still waiting for a quote on a custom sized (long and narrow) 15W panel to fit better in the top of the window.
I won this solar panel on eBay:

Sunflex 15W Mono Flexible Solar Panel,12V Charge - eBay (item 180490120855 end time Apr-11-10 20:48:57 PDT)

$45 + $15 for shipping.....It cost me less than the 5W panel I bought several years ago and it is only slightly larger in size.....Once it is installed, even with this standard size, your rear view vision will not be blocked due to the long glass hatch and top interior trim.

I have not installed it yet and won't be able to do in the next couple of weeks so it will take some time before I can report on the results. I will be replacing the original fans with much larger ones mounted in the vents hidden behind the back bumper with a inlet tube that extends to the cargo vents so it should be able to do a better job compared to what I have now....Too bad the cargo vents and a path to them are not mounted high as the hotter air is on top.....

JoeCVT = Just you average CVT owner
 

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I see a few of you have the warm air intake mod and have relocated the outside temp sender.

How does this help? I thought cooler denser air was more efficient? Also, does the engine now think it's warmer outside and change the ratio of fuel/air with sender relocated?
 
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