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At least he explains most of the variences. Good site for info. YMMV

Willie
 

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While a major effort, it was all completely inconclusive and a monumental waste of time. He didn't add the numbers in his sheet correctly, and his failure to exclude the obvious outlier just affirms there's nothing scientific about it. Ambient conditions, terrain, route, driving style, etc. all have far greater influence than the 0.48mpg difference observed when the outlier is discarded. 0.48mpg is nothing more than noise in the data.

He should have run 50 simulated miles on the dyno at about 20hp with a hydrocarbon sniffer on the exhaust to measure actual fuel consumed... would have given conclusive results.

The dyno option wouldn't have generated the excitement and sense of "community"... likely would have gotten WAY fewer views... which is the typical goal of anybody posting on Youtube.

He basically just got 23+ people to drive with and without the additive and log their mileage for nearly 60K miles.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
No he tested is bette same day same route same gas pump. Watch his videos he tested that same additive on the horsepower claims on a dyno. Also send me a link to someone that test gas additives in a better way than he does. He also mentions the variables. He may not have the perfect lab conditions but personally i would trust his tests over the snake oil salesman. You seem to only criticize. Why dont you go on utube and do it better. You will make good if you have 2 million viewers like him.
 

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because to some of us it isn't about making money, but to not waste other people's time for nothing? 99% of youtube technical videos are just that, i only go there for DIY tutorials on how to take something apart and put it back together, for a more prepared starting point. only other reason i go to youtube, is to watch people be idiots.


tell ya what, just save yourself the time and have the injectors sent in to be serviced instead of all this about additives, money better spent. most issues with power and mpg stem from dirty injectors, any additive in the tank will take many tanks with the additive and many thousands of miles to see results. having the injectors serviced will give immediate results, if they are imbalanced/dirty/semi clogged.

who wants to watch me debunk the other videos? yeah, i didn't think so. people seem to like anything that gives immediate positive results, even if it's all in your head. people don't like watching videos that have negative connotations, even if it may benefit them from not wasting their time. however i do believe in fuel treatments, but they're for lazy people and the results are less than spectacular and will wind up costing you more in the long run than doing the job right, for a ~20% result. an average 20% positive result compared to doing the job right, to me, constitutes being called snake oil because the marketing for those products advertises 100% or better, usually.


the real problem is, you need to ACTUALLY have a problem to start with to see real results, not just chuck cans of junk at your car because you THINK the injectors are plugged up. sending them to be cleaned, will actually get you a data sheet with actual figures you can physically see, not just educated guesses and mpg variances of real world conditions.


i also do not have a nice video camera, a nice voice, or a salesman's enthusiasm for selling you something regardless if you need it or not.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
One thing that i did learn from his videos is the the carbon deposits are soft at first and that those do get removed by these additives but that with time they get hardened and are nearly impossible to remove without taking engine appart. This tells me additives are more of a preventative if used often enough. I usually put one in before an oil change. And as i said have never had a fuel injector fail on me. I had an avalon that now my brother has with 280k miles i have a 98 lexus gs400 with 248k miles a 92 lexus ls400 with 210k miles a 92 miata with 148k miles a 2000 insight with 120k miles (this one is recent) and a 2000 4 runnervwith 90k miles. Not one has had a fuel injector clogged or fail.
 

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No he tested is bette same day same route same gas pump. Watch his videos he tested that same additive on the horsepower claims on a dyno. Also send me a link to someone that test gas additives in a better way than he does. He also mentions the variables. He may not have the perfect lab conditions but personally i would trust his tests over the snake oil salesman. You seem to only criticize. Why dont you go on utube and do it better. You will make good if you have 2 million viewers like him.
I watched the entire video, and the vast majority of it was about the "community" effort.

Same route, same day, same gas pump on an uncontrolled course. Did he record the temps? I didn't see that data. I would agree that HIS test, which he excluded from the bulk results, is likely the best data point.

Not sure why you're so defensive. It's not criticism, it's called being objective and skeptical.

First, the FACT is that any additive presented is unlikely to produce any meaningful gains. This is rooted in thermodynamics. Second, for it to be economical to justify any benefit is yet another highly unlikely event. This is because even a modest 1% gain will likely cost more $ than it saves.

Doing a whole lot of something that produces nothing is NOT better than something else.

The only good thing he is doing is catering to an audience and benefiting from it. Good for him. He established he has access to a dyno for testing. Rather than doing something scientific, he did something that would pull in users and get views. He's no different than the makers of the product. He's selling something. Good for him. Well, actually, I take it back... he's different than the makers of the product. He's selling entertainment. They're selling snake oil.

I watched the video about the dyno run. It's curious. The idea that adding 0.5 oz of something to a tank... an alteration of 0.065% of the tank contents can provide a 6.8% power boost is bordering on the absurd. Results should be questioned and investigated in a situation like this. The repeatability of the Dynapack is 0.3%. How is it applying its correction factors? Is there anything about the test setup that may influence the results?

Since power decreased with every run on the first round because, you know, "heat soak," then why didn't that happen the second round. Not only does this product improve power by an astounding amount, it also eliminates, you know, "heat soak." Miraculous.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. We have some evidence. The results appear extraordinary, but it brings more questions than answers, and the data to support the results hasn't been presented.

I test aviation parts. Every detail must be documented. Every claim must be substantiated by results. Every piece of test equipment has to be identified and its calibration confirmed. Every GAUGE that's reporting data has to be calibrated as to all inputs and outputs. Test environment influences have to be understood and compensated for or eliminated. Every "WTF?" result has to be explained.

Science and engineering are where progress is made. The scientific method is what establishes the laws and theories by experimentation, testing AND VALIDATION. Engineering takes those theories and laws and turns them into something that does something useful (usually). An informal dyno run on youtube does not quality as science or engineering.

I understand if you're a fan of the guy, but you shouldn't let it cloud your judgment.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

That's not ChrisFix's business model. He's about getting views and $. Good for him.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
How is soft carbon different from hard carbon? How long does it take for soft carbon to turn into hard carbon?

Soft carbon is sooty and more easily dissolved than hard carbon and can be remedied with additives, while hard carbon is baked on and is more labor intensive to address. Hard carbon requires manual cleaning such as media blasting.
How long it will take the soft carbon to turn to hard carbon will depend on the motorist?s driving habits and the initial cause of the buildup.
What steps can technicians take to remove soft carbon and/or hard carbon?

Soft carbon can be addressed by following the manufacturer?s preventative maintenance schedule along with a fuel additive that may be added to the vehicle?s fuel system before warm up. The technician can also utilize a fogger system via the throttle body. The fogger is connected to a pressurized dispenser filled with a chemical blend formulated to dissolve baked-on carbon deposits from the valves and passageways.
For hard carbon, the process is more involved. The most common procedures call for removing the intake manifold to expose the head?s ports, and rotating the engine by hand in its normal direction of rotation so that the intake valves for one of the cylinders are completely closed, then painstakingly cleaning.

http://m.autoserviceprofessional.com/article/95821/addressing-carbon-buildup-in-gdi-equipped-vehicles
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Bottom line fuel additives do clean soft carbon. If soft carbon is left unchecked then it will turn into hard carbon and the fuel additive will be useless. Conclusion: it makes sense to use fuel additive as a preventer of carbon by eliminating it before it hardens.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
I agree the dyno test was suspect but the video of the gas mileage basically concluded it was snake oil as far as gas mileage is concerned. The video about removing carbon deposits, while its not perfect because the first additive had an engine with soft carbon and the rest of the additives did not showed clearly that the additives do remove soft carbon and did not remove hardened carbon. (At least not in a significant way)

Criticism is good done in an appropriate manner. To say his videos are worthless is not criticsm. One should see the good part and the part of value and then point out the ways that it can be done better and the factors that could cause variation as you did in your last post. As far as the gas additive videos i think there is a lot of valuable information that one can gain as i did about the soft carbon.
 

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injectors rarely clog, they do however get semi plugged up to the point you rarely notice they are having issues. on my 01 with 300k i checked the fuel volume and found 1 injector that was about 15% off from the other 2 and it didn't make a big noticable difference, but it can't help efficiency.
 

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Discussion Starter #19 (Edited)
On all my cars i get above epa mpg ratings. On my gs 400 i get 26 going 80 on a trip and its rated at 24. I also use acceleration and mpg to monitor the deterioation of my car but i do believe the additive prevents carbon build up i have never had the injectors cleaned. I may be wasting my money now that i get most of my fill ups at costco and they have more detergents in their gas but sams club gas is basically gas straight out of the pipeline and if you use their gas i would add additives (which i used for most of my fill ups on these cars life)

If i had a direct injection car (which i dont) i would most certainly be doing regular top valve cleaning. I suggest you go to forums of cars with direct injection. Why is this a problem with direct injection? Because not enough gas hits the top side of the valve for the detergents of the gas to clean it. Further proof that gasoline detergents (which is basically what the additives are) do prevent carbon deposits.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
The question is not if additives will clean the injectors after 200k miles of time and heat with one tankfull after the deposits are hardened but the question is will it clean the soft carbon before it hardens if from day one you added the cleaner to the tank every 5000 miles. To make an analogy if you brush your teeth well when you go to the dentist for a cleaning it takes 3 minutes if you did not brush them well it takes 1 hour. So the ultrasonic cleaning is more like your dentist cleaning your teeth after the plaque has hardened and built up but the additive (rather its added by using high quality detergent gasoline or by the magic bottle) is like a good daily tooth brushing that prevents the build up. If you let the plaque accumulate for 70 years of your life and then decided to brush your teeth once with a tooth brush i doubt it will do much.
 
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