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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I recently bought a 2000 insight with 216,000 miles. It's very "used" and has a salvage title, but I got it cheap and the A/C works, and I needed a daily driver to work with good gas mileage. Anyway, when I test drove the vehicle and for a few days after the charge and assist was working with no IMA light but the battery status indicator would either be full or drained, and jump in between the two with no in between. After reading diff. threads I started sourcing the parts to build a grid charger/discharger to try and balance the battery cells. A couple of days ago on my way home from work at night the charge and assist quit working. I read the DTC codes and got 1576, 1449, 1445. I read a little on here and I am thinking the battery is done, which honestly doesn't surprise me, but I figured I'd start a thread and try to get some opinions and possible confirmation.
 

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I read the DTC codes and got 1576, 1449, 1445. I read a little on here and I am thinking the battery is done, which honestly doesn't surprise me, but I figured I'd start a thread and try to get some opinions and possible confirmation.
I tend to agree that the battery is probably gone. When the battery goes quickly from low or empty to indicated full very quickly it is a sign of very limited operating range before the imbalance under load triggers a 1449 and others.

Sometimes you can get a bit more life from an old battery by grid charging and discharging, but it isn't terribly promising for real problem batteries.

You might try a system reset by removing the 12V negative for a few seconds. This may get the IMA light off briefly, but it doesn't cure any real problems.

If the 12V battery light on the gauge cluster is lit, then the dc-dc converter isn't working and the car will soon stall and leave you stranded!

Some of those codes have multiple meanings. You can blink the codes and read the subcodes which are slightly more meaningful. Use this ref:


Get back to us.
 

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Try unhooking the 12 volt..se if you get 4 bars of charge. Check ground straps all three. Than if you can get get the car to auto stop, drive the car til its warmed up. Drive to your home and let it drift into autostop,set parking brake . Let it sit ,dont turn key off,let it drain down til you see the 12 volt light come on. All the regenerating bars will drop down to 1 or none ,make take a hour. Than push clutch ,car should come back to running. Than throttle up til 3500 rpm til you see the bars come back.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
You might try a system reset by removing the 12V negative for a few seconds. This may get the IMA light off briefly, but it doesn't cure any real problems.

If the 12V battery light on the gauge cluster is lit, then the dc-dc converter isn't working and the car will soon stall and leave you stranded!
No IMA light or 12v battery light just no charge and assist bars and the IMA battery bars stay at full charge. I will try to blink the codes and then take of the 12v negative and try to reset the system. I wouldn't doubt if that what was done before the car was sold to me. I was also wondering if there is are certain things you should or should not do while driving a hybrid? Like downshifting to help come to a stop (the car is a manual). Is this harmful since it puts the charge to full bars too quick? I will reply again with the blink codes I get. Thanks for the info.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Try unhooking the 12 volt..se if you get 4 bars of charge. Check ground straps all three. Than if you can get get the car to auto stop, drive the car til its warmed up. Drive to your home and let it drift into autostop,set parking brake . Let it sit ,dont turn key off,let it drain down til you see the 12 volt light come on. All the regenerating bars will drop down to 1 or none ,make take a hour. Than push clutch ,car should come back to running. Than throttle up til 3500 rpm til you see the bars come back.
Thanks for the info
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
The blink code I think I got was 23 (2 slow 3 fast) but it was the EPS light blinking not the IMA light?
 

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The blink code I think I got was 23 (2 slow 3 fast) but it was the EPS light blinking not the IMA light?
This a little confusing, to me at least. Usually we think of the blink codes as being sub-codes of primary codes(like the sub-codes of the 1449), but the EPS section of the Service Manual does not show any subcodes for the EPS. Therefore, I assume the 23 is a primary code for the EPS. If that is the case then the code means, "A problem with the engine spead signal circuit." The Service Manual has a two page troubleshooting procedure. Do you have the manual?

Since you did not see any subcodes for the 1449, and others, I'm wondering if you reset the codes before you tried to read sub-codes - as Honda hybrid 442 suggested. If you did that then you won't see all the sub-codes. Not having any codes on the IMA makes me think you must have done a system reset?

This link is frequently helpful, but it offers little help on EPS systems:

 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
This a little confusing, to me at least. Usually we think of the blink codes as being sub-codes of primary codes(like the sub-codes of the 1449), but the EPS section of the Service Manual does not show any subcodes for the EPS. Therefore, I assume the 23 is a primary code for the EPS. If that is the case then the code means, "A problem with the engine spead signal circuit." The Service Manual has a two page troubleshooting procedure. Do you have the manual?

Since you did not see any subcodes for the 1449, and others, I'm wondering if you reset the codes before you tried to read sub-codes - as Honda hybrid 442 suggested. If you did that then you won't see all the sub-codes. Not having any codes on the IMA makes me think you must have done a system reset?

This link is frequently helpful, but it offers little help on EPS systems:

So when the charge/assist stopped working originally I read the codes with my OBDII reader and then I did try and erase them but they did not erase. The next thing I did was start this discussion and after getting your suggestions I tried to read the blink codes BEFORE unplugging the negative terminal on the 12V battery. I didn't get the IMA to blink but the EPS was blinking. I then unplugged the 12V battery terminal and the system reset and on my way home from work last night the charge and assist was working. Today on my way to work the charge and assist quit working again. The IMA light still has not yet illuminated. I just read the codes again and only got the 1449. I then tried to blink the codes again without erasing them on my OBDII reader and still no blinking of the IMA light. Thank you again for the help. I do not have a manual by the way.
Now my question is this.... Is it worth it to put the time, money, and effort into building a grid charger to do a charge/discharge balance on the battery or is it too gone? Should I just start thinking about a new battery or not using the IMA at all. I bought the car for $500 dollars with a salvage title, no accurate history, and over 200,000 miles. I don't know if it's worth spending $1000+ on a new battery.
 

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^Yeah, I see your delimma.

With the car not having a lot of monetary value, decisions become tough. If it is an MT, then you can run the car in battery bypass mode with little effect on the highway. Acceleration is slowed in city driving.

Rather than use a scanner, try this procedure to get the 1449 blink codes (There will likely be several, so let them cycle through several times and make good notes):


A bent paper clip makes a good jumper.

It also occurs to me that since you aren't seeing the IMA light, it may be burned out, or someone may have removed it. You can check by looking in the bottom right corner of the dash gauge immediately when you turn the ignition on. It should light for a few seconds as a self check.

Keep a careful eye on the battery light. Check it also, by the above procedure, but if it comes on, the car will stall on long trips and leave you stranded.

Report back please.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
^Yeah, I see your delimma.

With the car not having a lot of monetary value, decisions become tough. If it is an MT, then you can run the car in battery bypass mode with little effect on the highway. Acceleration is slowed in city driving.

Rather than use a scanner, try this procedure to get the 1449 blink codes (There will likely be several, so let them cycle through several times and make good notes):


A bent paper clip makes a good jumper.

It also occurs to me that since you aren't seeing the IMA light, it may be burned out, or someone may have removed it. You can check by looking in the bottom right corner of the dash gauge immediately when you turn the ignition on. It should light for a few seconds as a self check.

Keep a careful eye on the battery light. Check it also, by the above procedure, but if it comes on, the car will stall on long trips and leave you stranded.

Report back please.
Yeah I was thinking the same thing about the IMA light not even working for whatever reason. It does not come on at the start up of the car. However the 12V light does, so that's nice lol. I was doing the jumper to try and get the blink codes. Is there a link or can you give me instructions for the battery bypass mode? Thank you
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Yeah I was thinking the same thing about the IMA light not even working for whatever reason. It does not come on at the start up of the car. However the 12V light does, so that's nice lol. I was doing the jumper to try and get the blink codes. Is there a link or can you give me instructions for the battery bypass mode? Thank you
And would you consider the battery junk? Or is there some way of reconditioning it? Maybe like a less expensive albeit labor intensive method? In your opinion would grid charging?discharging do anything for it?
 

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I suggest trying this: The quintessential Insight NiMH voltage thread

Get a grid charger together, charge it, then drive to drain, then do a tap-level deep discharge, followed by another grid charge. P1449 signals at minimum extreme imbalance. You really don't won't to fuss with full pack discharges particularly with such imbalance.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
I suggest trying this: The quintessential Insight NiMH voltage thread

Get a grid charger together, charge it, then drive to drain, then do a tap-level deep discharge, followed by another grid charge. P1449 signals at minimum extreme imbalance. You really don't won't to fuss with full pack discharges particularly with such imbalance.
Hello! so I built my charger and am charging now. Everything seems to be going fine I just had a few questions concerns. I am charging at 350 ma with the 12v battery hooked up normal, key out, IMA battery fan on, fan on charger, at 350 mA. Does this sound correct? Also, with what I am assuming is a very imbalanced battery how long or what voltage should I charge to? I am currently charging at work, so when I leave in about 7 hrs should I turn the Ima batery breaker off until I get home and resume charging? Any information would be appreciated. Thank you
 

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I am charging at 350 ma with the 12v battery hooked up normal, key out, IMA battery fan on, fan on charger, at 350 mA. Does this sound correct?
Sounds good...

Also, with what I am assuming is a very imbalanced battery how long or what voltage should I charge to?
Good question. The best approach would be to take voltage measurements at the voltage taps about every...15 minutes once the pack should be close to full, I'd say after about 20 hours of charging. When the voltages peak and hold for about an hour or two, or fall, they're probably as full as they'll get...

But that's a real hassle. You can do the same using full pack voltage instead of tap voltages, but not quite as fool proof. And also a hassle.

I personally wouldn't charge for more than 24 hours, but over the last year or two, people have shifted to doing longer charges, like 28 hours+. It kind of depends on what you're gonna do afterward...

If you go 28 hours+ then other people willing to help won't be able to tell you that you should have charged longer, meaning, if you go less they're likely to tell you that.

I am currently charging at work, so when I leave in about 7 hrs should I turn the Ima batery breaker off until I get home and resume charging?
That would probably be the easiest approach. If you didn't turn it OFF, the car would try to use the pack and could throw potentially confusing variables into your reconditioning process. I don't think using or not using it would be bad per se, though. Just makes the process more difficult.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Sounds good...



Good question. The best approach would be to take voltage measurements at the voltage taps about every...15 minutes once the pack should be close to full, I'd say after about 20 hours of charging. When the voltages peak and hold for about an hour or two, or fall, they're probably as full as they'll get...

But that's a real hassle. You can do the same using full pack voltage instead of tap voltages, but not quite as fool proof. And also a hassle.

I personally wouldn't charge for more than 24 hours, but over the last year or two, people have shifted to doing longer charges, like 28 hours+. It kind of depends on what you're gonna do afterward...

If you go 28 hours+ then other people willing to help won't be able to tell you that you should have charged longer, meaning, if you go less they're likely to tell you that.



That would probably be the easiest approach. If you didn't turn it OFF, the car would try to use the pack and could throw potentially confusing variables into your reconditioning process. I don't think using or not using it would be bad per se, though. Just makes the process more difficult.
Cool, thank you so much for the help. I'll split the difference and do 26 hrs lol. I built my charger using the design from Olrowdy's site, and it has the Amperage and voltage display so if there is a full pack voltage I should be shooting for or avoiding it is easy for me to see. After the 26 hr grid charge I plan on doing the drive to drain, then tap level discharge with shorting the taps, then a grid charge as you have suggested. I read the link on the thread you have about shorting the taps and using the resistors as a load and I will probably hit you up for confirmation on doing it correctly once I get to that point. Thanks again.
 

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I'll split the difference and do 26 hrs lol. I built my charger using the design from Olrowdy's site, and it has the Amperage and voltage display so if there is a full pack voltage I should be shooting for or avoiding it is easy for me to see.
Peak voltage can vary quite a bit depending on pack condition/state and temp. If ambient's around 70-80F and the pack hasn't been overcharging and heating a lot, and the pack is...typical? - you might see around 174V. Around those temps I don't think I'd stop unless voltage peaked above 172V...

After the 26 hr grid charge I plan on doing the drive to drain, then tap level discharge with shorting the taps...
Here's a link to a thread where one guy went through the process, some posts down from the start of the thread. Might help to check it out: P1449
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Hello, its been a while... So I did the grid charge a while ago and was driving to discharge it and then my charger got stolen out of my car so i never did fully discharge it. I just finished building another charger and did a grid charge and then used a light bulb to discharge then did the deep discharge by shorting the taps. I then did another grid charge but when I went to start using the IMA system again the charge and assist and level indicator don't work. I tried taking the negative terminal off the 12v battery a few times and it still isn't working. Do you have any suggestions on how I might get it to start functioning again?
 

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^ So, let's try to boil everything down to the bare essentials, to recap:

-you bought a car with a bad pack
-you read these codes at one time: 1576, 1449, 1445, blink code 23, and you saw your BAT gauge going from top to bottom fast, i.e. indeed bad pack
-you grid charged the pack at least once -- and, Did the IMA system work after that, long enough to observe assist and regen working?

-You weren't able to totally discharge the pack by driving, so eventually you used a light bulb: What state was the IMA/pack in when you did the light bulb thing - like how long had the car sat, how much had it been used since your grid charge?

-How long did you discharge, to what voltage, with what wattage bulb, etc.?
-what exactly did you do for the tap-level discharges?
-How long did you grid charge for after the tap discharges?

In general, you should have a functional pack after the last grid charge - there should be some functionality - unless at least one cell was so bad that the full-pack deep discharge pushed it over the edge, or something in the process went badly, or if you have some other system-related problem, like maybe a bad 12V battery or bad 12V system grounds...

Start by confirming you have a good 12V battery and that the 3 grounds are solid, clean, etc. Your blink code 23 EPS thing says at one point you probably had such a bad IMA pack that the DCDC disabled and let the 12V discharge...
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
After the first grid charge, while I was driving to help discharge and my charger got stolen, the ima system worked good. It seemed to stay changed better etc. Then, probably about 6 weeks ago, the ima system went blank and I disconnected the 12v battery and it came back. At that time I ordered the parts to build a new charger. My obd scanner was also stolen so I dont know what codes it had or has at the moment. About 3 weeks ago I started the grid charging process. The ima system was functioning at the time. The car is my daily driver so I would have the breaker on while sitting charging and turn it off when I would drive. I did the same during discharge. I charged it for approx 24 hr and got to I think 174v. It was prob 50 degrees or less outside. I discharged it with I don't know what watt light but probably like 75? It was a common incandescent household bulb I scavenged. Total pack voltage was I think 136 when I unplugged it. I then followed the deep discharge instructions and diagram for shorting locations and stopped with each set of 5 when voltage halved. Then grid charged for approximately 20+ hr to I think 175v. Then I, approximately 2 weeks ago, turned the breaker on with car off unplugged the 12v battery, let it sit while I was at work a few hrs and hooked it back up to drive home. After the charge and assist and battery indicator never came on I tried a couple more time to unhook the 12v battery with no success. I have had the ima battery breaker on for the last 2 weeks and it starts with the 12v starter every day. I have tried to read the blink codes but my ima indicator light has never turned on and I think it is burnt out or nonfunctional. If you can describe the locations of the three ground wires or I can look it up, I will check those. I just didn't know if maybe I need to erase some code or something?... I'm gonna get another pocket scanner here soon. Thanks
 

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^ Not seeing anything majorly egregious here that would mean 'certain death', though it's hard to follow and I have to do a lot of reading between the lines...

A total pack discharge with ~75W bulb, down to 136V, could result in a seriously reversed cell and failure. But given that you had grid charged for what looks like a cumulative total of 24 hours and hit a peak voltage of around 174V prior to the discharge it doesn't seem particularly high probability... Ideally you should be grid charging in one session, continuous. You can break it up into parts a little bit, but if you're not careful about it, somewhat judicious and discerning, you may not get the full charge you need... It complicates things.

Your following tap discharge is at a fraction of the discharge rate of your full pack work, and with only 12 cells in series instead of 120, there's little to no risk of serious reversal... Maybe a cell had problems coming out of the deep discharge? I haven't really seen that. I've seen a few cells out of hundreds that have struggled a little bit more than others to rebound, but they have always rebounded...

After the tap work, you should have let the taps rebound for ~24 hours, then did a full grid charge. It sounds like you probably got close to that. And it sounds like this is when things failed to recover - after your final grid charge ~20 hours to about 175V. Is that right?

I any event, I don't think we're gonna get very far parsing your methods and timeline.

12V grounds: There's two to lower driver's side of the air filter box, and the 12V ground cable.

I think we need some blink codes or OBDII reader codes...

After your final grid charge, there shouldn't have been anything special needed to do - you should have been able to just turn the key ON and go.

After you confirm that your 12V battery and grounds are solid, some unloaded and loaded tap voltage readings would probably help. Do you now have a discharger? If so, hook it up and take tap voltage measurements -- after you take unloaded ones, that is.** The two sets of measurements might reveal a major battery problem, if there is one.

** Oh yeah, after you take the unloaded readings, hook-up your discharge load, but wait a minute before measuring the voltages. This will help 'normalize' the readings.
 
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