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If they stick with the current civic design, thats 144 volts. It will only be backwards swappable for out First Gen owners. If they make it for the crz or 100 volts, then we have a shot.
 

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If they stick with the current civic design, thats 144 volts. It will only be backwards swappable for out First Gen owners. If they make it for the crz or 100 volts, then we have a shot.
I think up to now, the HCH had a 158V set-up. The electric motor outputs a little more, with 15Kw, than G1 or G2 (10Kw) Insight. If they keep the same set-up, it will not be possible to swap the battery direclty... well... I leave this to the battery experts in this forum, might be easier than I think... ;)
 

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I think up to now, the HCH had a 158V set-up. The electric motor outputs a little more, with 15Kw, than G1 or G2 (10Kw) Insight. If they keep the same set-up, it will not be possible to swap the battery direclty... well... I leave this to the battery experts in this forum, might be easier than I think... ;)
Early news from a few years ago when Honda was discussing going with lithium, they explained the reason of going to lithium is that it costs less for them to do so. ...which seems the opposite of what you would expect, but its not. They can do it with a smaller battery because todays lithium can dish out power and be charged at much faster rates than our current NiMh cells can. They also don't have to deal with the rapid self-discharge issues of our cylindrical NiMh and might just last longer too if Honda designs their lithium system right and puts a decent quality lithium battery in the car.

The only reason why they have so much capacity with our current NiMh packs is to be able to draw about 100 amps or so from them. We have lithium that can push a burst rate of 100 amps and be 1/6 the capacity, possibly even better from certain companies, however would need 5Ah or so to regen at the same rate. They might cut down maximum regen rate to accommodate a smaller pack or produce a higher voltage pack of smaller cells with a better heat management system. If they put in a heat management system like the one LG Chem is putting in that the Chevy Volt, Ford Focus Electric, and Hyundai Sonata Hybrid are all getting, they could do some pretty crazy stuff without much thermal concern at all.

As far as a swap to one that is not normally designed for those packs, it is possible but will probably require removing the cells and installing them into a fresh design like Peter has done with the three packs he has built so far(two of which have performed very well so far).

I would probably be more inclined to retrofitting a larger capacity pack from one of these production electrics into my car and use MIMA rather than mess with a similar sized or smaller pack from Honda.
 

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I think up to now, the HCH had a 158V set-up. The electric motor outputs a little more, with 15Kw, than G1 or G2 (10Kw) Insight. If they keep the same set-up, it will not be possible to swap the battery direclty... well... I leave this to the battery experts in this forum, might be easier than I think... ;)
That's correct, my 2006 HCH II is 158 V, topping out around 190V (max of 192v) now since the latest sw update, as measured at the IMA battery terminals.
 

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What about temperature regulation? If the next gen HCH has the same ineffective setup as the current HCH II, I'd be very wary given the LiON batteries are more temperature sensitive.
 

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158? Nominal? I saw a guys civic hybrid and the door sticker said 144.

Yeah, dont think having the pack vertical in the back seat is a good setup for cooling.
 

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Opps, my bad. Wonder how the extra "stick" helps with performance, fuel economy and longivity?
Performance - 15kw instead of 10kw, big difference there, but needed for public acceptance in a vehicle that weighs what a Civic does.

Fuel economy - With 15kw if someone uses that power, its more charge that has to be replaced back into the battery, so it is possibly worse, depends on the driver, but in most cases it would be worse for those who would use more than 10kw regularly.

Longevity - Reduced, 120 cells is already a whole bunch of cells, add 12 more and that is 132 points of failure. Considering the results when it comes to the way these batteries fail, it is better to have less since capacity, self-discharge, and internal resistance don't all degrade consistently from cell to cell, the more you have the more issues are involved.

Lithium doesn't have the varying self-discharge problem and for the same power, a third the amount of cells(or even less) could be used and they are easier to work with in terms of charging and discharging because their voltage response is more predictable. Historically lithium wouldn't last a long time before it losses capacity and with a certain number of cycles and calendar life the whole pack would be shot at about the same time. Newer lithium promises so much more and in the smaller cycles of a hybrid, it is possible that todays lithium could last far longer than any NiMh to where a 10 year 150k mile warranty would likely never be touched. Time will tell, for what its worth, Chevy Volt is aiming for EAT-PZEV for either their next model year or the year after so if they want to sell it in CARB states, they will have a 10 year 150k mile warranty. They said they will do it. If they last that long and I'm not reading of failures, confidence in electric cars and lithium hybrids will be much better. Most people who ask me questions about my 2000 Insight that is closer to 11 years old than 10 are asking questions about the battery, with lithium I think those questions would have a more confident answer. Instead I tell people how much it costs to refurbish them and that my battery is doing great.
 

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1 "stick" is 5 kilowatts? :confused
It is really 2 additional "sticks"......Just the 2 sticks alone does not make up the 5 kilowatts additional.....It just makes the whole pack be able to cope with the 15 kilowatt usage a bit better. It doesn't drain the pack so quickly compared to if the Civic had the same pack as the Gen1 Insight.

Probably the same thing could be said in the opposite direction of the Gen1 vs Gen2 Insight with a reduced number of cells in the Gen2, the pack either drains more quickly and / or does not provide assist as long of time compared to the Gen1 Insight.

JoeCVT = Just your average CVT owner
 

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Hybrid batterys are sized for power output not energy.

So if you move from a battery that is happy to discharge at 15C (15x capacity of 6.5A) to provide the design intention 10kW assist to a better spec that can achieve 20C and still give 10kW yet take up less space, easier to manage and lighter whilst reducing the pack cost thats what you do... infact thats what Honda did.
 
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