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Hi All:

___A few months ago, I pumped up the Integrity’s on the 03 Corolla to 50 #’s. I was always amazed as to how far it would coast at that pressure. I had the chance to drive her to work last night and then on to pick up my son from the U of I and back home today. (The 03 Corolla without a single warm air mod was driven in 11 to 27 degree temperatures a distance of 275.4 miles on 5.995 gallons (45.94 mpg) which is just shy of my all-time high 45.96 mpg :()

___Anyway, on the off ramp from I-294 South bound to the toll-booth before you drive onto the I-55 On-ramp here in Illinois, it’s an ~ 1/3 - 1/2 mile incline to the booth. In the Corolla from 65 mph, I am still coasting at ~ 20 mph at the gate. On this same ramp in the Insight w/ the same 50 #’s in the RE92’s, I usually hit the exit ramp at 50 - 55 mph and don’t have enough momentum to make it to the booths. This is after shifting the Insight into neutral just a short distance after hitting the off-ramp. The Insight just doesn’t seem to coast as well in Neutral as the Corolla does in Drive? The Corolla is an Automatic. Does anyone have any idea as to how this could be? The Corolla’s wheel/tire combo probably has much more inertia but the car itself has Cd of .29 vs. the Insight’s .25 and the frontal area has to be 30 - 50% larger then the Insight’s. Does the Corolla’s 2,500 #’s vs. the Insight’s 1,900 #’s make any difference? I would assume mass would cancel out in the loss of energy equation in comparison to one another given the 50’ or so climb over the ~ 1/3 - 1/2 mile distance? The Corolla just seems to coast better for whatever reason and I can’t explain it given the ~ 45 mph loss at higher speeds then the Insight’s > 50 mph loss at slightly lower speeds? I will try a more scientific run while watching the GPS and hitting the ramp at the same speed the next time around but it might be awhile … Just wondering if anyone has ever felt a similar anomaly in their Insight compared to their other automobiles with similar pressure in the tires of both?

___A bit more information … While in drive and coasting, the Corolla’s RPM stays slightly above idle (1,100 – 1,200 RPM) but I feel engine breaking for the first few seconds before it just lets loose and the real coast begins. Could it still be providing propulsion with no accelerator input and at these higher speeds? Transmission creep wouldn’t explain the higher speed coasting capabilities, could it?

___The next time I drive the Insight to the fuel station, there is a jersey barrier free turnout about 1.5 miles down that I always turn around at. I will coast from a given point at an exact speed in both to test the Insight and the Corolla’s coasting abilities but the Corolla feels like it coasts a little bit better is all?

___Thanks in advance.

___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.
___[email:yp13t8lg][email protected][/email:yp13t8lg]
 

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Coasting under power

I've found that many automatic transmission cars have quite a lot of continous acceleration if left in drive.

The way be compare would be to make certain that the Corolla is in true neutral and that the engine is disengaged.

If the corolla is on a flat or slight incline and you put it from park to drive or neutral to drive, does that start it moving? Put it up in a garage, and I bet you will see it driving the wheels. Put the Insight up, and they won't move.

I have a friend with an Escort which accelerates all the time in drive, and I know the Jeep Waganeers used to have a lot of acceleration without any foot on the pedal. I don't know if they still do.

The problem can be made even worse if the car is not in the peak of service.

I bet that is what you are observing.
 
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Hi Figgy:

___Yes, there is definitely Transmission creep in the Corolla but I didn’t think it would have an effect at high speeds? The next time I do a coast test, I will drop it into Neutral as you suggested. Great suggestion by the way! This will tell me if the transmission/engine was assisting in the coast tests. I am not complaining in the least as my last 95 mile commute in the Insight 2 days ago gave me an 87.4 mpg reading in sub 30 degree temperatures ;)

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.
___[email:m5zxi034][email protected][/email:m5zxi034]
 

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the auto trans should be a major factor.

Also the corolla has heavier tires/rims that would "store" alot of rotating energy.
 

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I would think that the lighter weight of the Insight is probably a factor as well. Although it's more streamlined than the Corolla, there is still friction from the wind, and the Insight has significantly less momentum (mass * velocity) than a Corolla at the same speed. I don't know whether the equation would be linear or not, but assuming it is....

Assuming that the sum of all drag on the Insight (rolling resistance, air resistance, friction in the bearings, compression braking, etc.) is defined as "drag," if the ratio of drag to weight in the Insight is higher than the ratio of drag to weight in the Corolla, wouldn't the Insight lose speed faster?

How's that for factless speculation? :p

MF
 

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Yes, this is interesting theoretical speculation. Good mind aerobics, anyway.

The difference in total air drag force would not be huge at those low speeds, and in fact would diminish greatly as speed slows (drag is proportional to the square of velocity).

More weight/mass equals more momentum, as has been mentioned several times, and this is probably a big factor, given the low speed/air drag involved.

And the auto tranny in drive will tend to add thrust below a given speed...

I have no idea what I am talking about....ow, my brain.... :roll:
 
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Hi All:

___You had me thinking last night unfortunately … What I will do is get up to speed (55 mph) on a flat portion of Rt. 41 at night in both and see how far each will coast according to their respective odometers while in neutral. The Insight’s odometer and speedometer are slightly fast in reality but over a ½ mile distance, it shouldn’t be enough to skew the results.

___I believe the Integrity’s have higher RR then the Bridgestone’s at 50 #’s? I also believe the Insight’s wheel bearing frictional drag was possibly designed for low friction vs. the off-the-shelf HW as was the Corolla’s more then likely? The Cd and frontal area of the Insight make it a far more likely candidate to conserve its energy from a given speed to 0 mph I believe? The inertia of the Corolla’s wheel tire combo makes sense but I believe the momentum equations cancel out the mass so it shouldn’t have an effect in the inclined ramp scenario. It has been 20 years since my last Physics class ;)

___Good luck and thanks to you all.

___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.
___[email:38lvlqjm][email protected][/email:38lvlqjm]
 

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Momentum

I agree with everyone about the heavier car with heavier wheels/tires etc. having more momentum AND therefore maybe going further even if it has more drag and is less efficient on the road.

Most importantly, we must not forget that the big heavy auto thing will coast further than the tiny little car ONLY because more gas was used to get the big heavy auto thing up to speed in the first place!

You might coast further in the Corolla (Heavy Auto Thing, HAT), but if you want to be fair to the Insight (the TLC), you should let it also use while coasting all the gas the HAT used to get up to speed.

:roll:
Moral: TLC is better than HAT on GAS.

p.s. I think my brain is fried as well.
 
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Discussion Starter #9
Hi Figgy:

___You almost had me fall off the chair :lol:

___I am dreading the Acronym you come up with for the 4,400 # MDX :D

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.
___[email:udfu2wz1][email protected][/email:udfu2wz1]
 

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xcel said:
I believe the momentum equations cancel out the mass
They do not. F=ma tells you that a (in this case a rate of deceleration) is inversely proportional to the vehicle mass for a given force. If the forces involved are not linearly dependent on vehicle mass, then the mass does not cancel out.

Aerodynamic drag force (as discussed in another thread) is the product of drag coefficient, air density, frontal area, and velocity squared. It has no dependence on vehicle mass. So a heavier car will travel farther. This is analogous to heavier objects having a higher terminal fall velocity in air.

I'm not so sure about rolling resistance.
 

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Tim Maddux said:
<snip>

This is analogous to heavier objects having a higher terminal fall velocity in air.

I'm not so sure about rolling resistance.
I seem to remember Leonardo da Vinci disproving this a couple hundred years back by dropping two different mass spheres off the tower of Pizza (even before it was "leaning" <g>). If you roll two spheres of different mass at the same velocity the sphere of greater mass will roll proportionately farther. All elements of "friction" are the much smaller factor in the equation.

What has not been stated but we all know is the very not so hot aspect is that you prevent any regenerative braking energy recovery when "coasting."
 
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Hi All:

___Here is my reasoning that mass cancels in the equation … All the Kinetic Energy of either car is transferred to Potential Energy when either car reaches 0 speed at the top of said Ramp. I am simplifying by leaving out all resistance effects although in actuality, the Insight should have less resistance imho?

KE=½ MV**2
PE=MgH

___If all the KE of either the Corolla or Insight were converted to PE, (0 speed at some given height above where the two automobiles stopped providing power/started coasting), that means the 2 equations must be equal.

KE = 1/2MV**2
PE = MgH

1/2M(Corolla)V(Corolla)**2 = M(Corolla)gH --> Masses cancel leaving --> 1/2V(Corolla)**2 = gH
1/2M(Insight)V(Insight)**2 = M(Insight)gH --> Masses cancel leaving --> 1/2V(Insight)**2 = gH

___Since the Velocity of the 2 automobiles (Corolla and Insight) are the same at To (55 mph) and Tf (0 mph), the height they would rise should be the same (~ 50 ft), and g is the gravitational constant, both should have transferred all of their KE to PE after the same amount of height increase. Afterwards, it’s a question of friction over the 1/3 – 1/2 mile of road, not the KE (Mass dependant) of each entering the ramp.

___Now go dust off those Physics books out and help me along with this ;)

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.
___[email:2etaefl8][email protected][/email:2etaefl8]
 

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HI,

Unless I have missed something, no tests where done with both cars in neutral. For sure the automatic left in drive will help moving forward.

I think that there is no need for mathematics until a test is done with a good case: both in neutral

No?
 
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Hi Yves:

___You are entirely correct …

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.
___[email:29wfl37q][email protected][/email:29wfl37q]
 

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In a vacuum all objects fall at the same velocity. In air a steel ball falls faster than a feather. Terminal velocity occurs when the force of gravity matches the force due to aerodynamic drag.
 

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edit: oh, nevermind....

Well, I changed my mind again. That "assume" thing really is true, at least in my case.

Now, like you, I don't think mass may make a difference in distance up a grade since gravity would exert more force in a direction opposite.

ow....brain cramp.....ow ow ow...


I seem to recall doing this same problem way back when, in basic physics. This is one of those concepts that proves that intuition is not always right, and sometimes is completely wrong. Add all the variables and you got a mess....
 

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Insightful Trekker said:
I seem to remember Leonardo da Vinci disproving this a couple hundred years back by dropping two different mass spheres off the tower of Pizza
Galileo, according to popular lore, although he never wrote about actually performing the experiment, so scientific historians consider the story to be apocryphal. In any case, the supposed test was of the gravitational constant, and not of terminal velocity.

If you roll two spheres of different mass at the same velocity the sphere of greater mass will roll proportionately farther. All elements of "friction" are the much smaller factor in the equation.
Without friction, all spheres would roll forever. Wayne is right that "it's a question of friction over the 1/3 - 1/2 mile of road," which is neglected in his equations and which is (as I said before) independent of mass.
 
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