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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
As a few know I bought a sadly neglected UK manual tax free 235,000 mile car very cheap a few months ago.

It had a whole host of issues, but I've sorted just about all of it now thanks to my stock of spares and the crashed one I bought and stripped down last year.

Anyway one error code that kept popping up was P1565 Commutation problem. Hmm.

I did the diagnostics by the book, checking the wiring and changing the mcm for a known good one, generally scratching my head. Anyway it kept comming back especially after car was warm. I suspected the sensor wiring inside the motor casing.

Eventually the manual said "Replace Commutation Sensor"!

Now you don't really want to hear this, as it's a gearbox out, flywheel off job which is a right pain.

Anyway I needed to change the gearbox due to the noisy input shaft bearing so it all came out yesterday.

Inspecting the plastic cover over the motor behind the flywheel it appeared something had been rubbing against it? Closer inspection of the three commutation sensors showed that one had been damaged by something rubbing across the face of it!! The only thing that goes near the sensor faces is the commutation trigger plate which mounts on the rear of the flywheel. A close look at this compared with my spare showed it had very rough/damaged trigger points, hmm. All very strange.

How had the commutation plate been damaged? Dropped when clutch and possibly spigot bearing was changed at 165,000 miles? Loose bolt on commutation plate working out and then hitting/sensors/cover. Very Very unlucky small stone got between flywheel and cover damaging plate then sensor?

Anyway I've replaced commutation plate, sensors, gearbox, spigot bearing and release bearing. All going back together today.

I'll report back if this sorts it but to be honest if it doesn't I'm stumped.

I'll post some pics of the damaged items when I get them on my bench.

The commutation sensor is comprised of three sensors arranged in an arc behind flywheel and it looks like I can at least keep two for spares, I'll test the damaged one on the bench to see If I can replicate it's problem. Still learning about the Insight every day!!
 

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Discussion Starter #2 (Edited)
Car back up and running seems OK no errors as yet and gearbox not making horrible noise!!

Three pics.

Two showing Commutation plate on back of flywheel, note damage to edges of the sensor activation points and the flecks of damage on the back plate. Looks like a stone or piece of metal got loose and bounced around behind the flywheel!!

One showing damage to end of one of the three sensors, now this might only be cosmetic but not good whatever.





 

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Peter,
My 2004 CVT Insight is having the same code, but only intermittently. Was yours on constantly?

I've troubleshot per the book, checked connector under hood and on the MCM. All check good. Yet tomorrow or the next day, I will get a check engine and IMA light and the IMA goes offline. Shortly afterward, the battery light comes on because the DC-DC converter has no power.

Does this sound like yours at all?

Thanks,
Mike
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Sadly it does sound like mine, intermittent and damn annoying, but my cure was not 100% and I think my cure was due to the fact I plugged/unplugged engine end connector etc.

I got the same code the other day for the first time in weeks, and now suspect the wiring has a bad connection between sensor plug on engine and MCM at rear.

In fact if mine becomes a problem I intend to run some new screened wires from front to back purely for the commutation sensors.

I would triple check the engine end connector, and in fact try cleaning the plug contacts if possible or making it a tighter fit somehow. My codes seemed to be heat related so I suspected that connector from the start!!

I might try chopping the connector off at the engine end and putting a new one on. I really do suspect that connector. It's difficult to get at which is a shame.

If you have a scangauge you can just reset codes by the roadside and continue. The intermitent nature of the fault means you can usually keep going.
 

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Bad news, but thanks for the info. I checked the engine bay connector and the contacts looked good and clean. I doused it with electrical contact cleaner/lubricat any way. But I still have the problem. I'm afraid mine might be like yours and the sensor itself is damaged inside the tranny bell housing. I REALLY wish they had designed it so you could swap those sensors without pulling the tranny! :mad:

I have a PC-linked OBDII scanner, which is un-handy as far as roadside resets. May have to pick up a cheapie scantool just for resets.

I've noticed mine acts up more in wet weather, so I agree, something is loose or exposed to the elements. If I just turn off the car and restart, the IMA works for a while. I only ever get that one code, P1565.

Thanks again for your info! If I get it figured out I will post up!
 

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Discussion Starter #9 (Edited)
Got my P1565 commutation error code back yesterday briefly. First time in about a year. Need to fiddle around with the connectors again. This is unrelated to the MCM mods but is annoying. Now it coincides with a cold wet spell here and me removing the rear crossmember and un plugging the ima wiring attached to the floor behind the bulkhead. Hmm. Just distracts me from the MCM work.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Errors back

My P1565 is back again and several times yesterday.

I'll check the wiring and earths today might change the mcm but I'm rapidly concluding that they will need to come out :(

Very strangely it is certain vibrations or types of bump/pothole that trigger it. Go over a cattle grid at above 10 but less than 25 mph and it comes straight on.

Perhaps one has a loose connection inside it. Argghhh
 

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Discussion Starter #11
First day of my holiday driving 200 miles up to Scotland and had about 8 P1565 errors arrghhh!

I will def be swapping them out when I get back home. Might change the gearbox at the same time. Car had stood a couple of days and I suspect damp plays a part possibly getting into the sensors especially if the seal is broken or the tip eroded. Using it every day now whilst here and errors less frequent (1-2 day) perhaps dried it out a bit.

Luckily I can clear them just by turning ign on/off for a few seconds.
 

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Huh, this doesn't seem to be a common problem in the Gen1 Insight or HCH, but it does seem to be a tough one to fix.

Your sensors looked like what was in the second post, you replaced them, and you're STILL getting errors?
 

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Discussion Starter #13
I suppose I might have been unlucky with the set I fitted 50,000 miles ago and it/one has just failed, they did come out of car I knew nothing about. Oh well.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Not having much luck yet.
Fitted a new set of sensors and immediate code.
Worse than before!

Arrgghh!!! All got to come out again.

Will try another set :(
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Nightmare

After another set of sensors and almost immediate return of the code I did some more investigation of the connections/wiring front to back. I had checked these for continuity before with no concerns. :(

Luckily I had IMAC&C so I could start the car and command some assist while testing at tickover.

If you did not touch anything it was fine and it would sit there with one click of assist revving slightly. Once I had the back off I found the slightest touch on the IMA harness disappearing down under the rear cross member towards the front of the car caused the code to appear. Clearly it had gotten much worse and had previously been triggered by large bumps/potholes in the road.

Out came the crossmember off came the panel behind the seats.

Visual inspection of the wiring and harness connection plugs behind there OK, no sign of rodents. Unplug and replug, using contact cleaner. Marginal improvement and now a slightly harder touch on the wiring triggers the code.

Further pulling and pushing flexing etc reveals the blue harness connector has serious problems, breath on the commutation sensor wires passing through that connector and immediate code. Anyway I would have changed the rear part of the harness and tried a new connector but I have so many devices spliced into the ima harness in the ipu that was just not feasible.

So I bypassed the connector for the 9 commutation wires passing through the connector. I cut the wires in the downstream IPU side of the harness and spliced them (soldered) into the wires entering the rear of the upstream connector. Turned it on and error has vanished. Mauling/ragging the wiring/connector now does not bring it back. :) What a PITA.

Almost perfect, but after writhing around with the wires at this connector i think I have induced another failure as the MOTA FSB code is displayed P1645 so I will have to bypass the whole connector I think as it has clearly deteriorated badly and is breaking down further with movement.

Oh well it's an easy enough job just a pain and it's killing my knees.
Final update to follow with luck.

Moral of the story check that big blue connector behind the seat panel before ripping out the gearbox twice to replace commutation sensors!

When testing continuity make sure you can access all the connectors and manipulate them to check if movement induces the fault.

I probably should have known better.
 

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That comes with age Peter...It called CRS.

Glad you found the problem and included a cure.

Willie
 

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wow. Glad you got it fixed. Sorry it had to be the painful route. I have had stuff like that happen before and been tempted to just drive the offending car over a cliff! Good for you for sticking it out
 

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A handy tool for intermittent wires is a cable checker by behringer, they are about £20 and have a latching led to show if a connecton breaks continuity when you wiggle the connextor
 

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So your saying the blue connector in the battery box area that the mcm connected to

A handy tool for intermittent wires is a cable checker by behringer, they are about £20 and have a latching led to show if a connecton breaks continuity when you wiggle the connextor[/QUOTE I have a 2003 Honda Civic hybrid with the same issues and am new to site,trying to understand what blue connector and what area,is it safe to unplug connector from the mcm,and is that the area you are talking about,thank you for any help you can provide,do I need to turn off the ima battery before messing with the blue connector.:confused:
 
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