Honda Insight Forum banner

1 - 20 of 131 Posts

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
331 Posts
Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
First off I would like to thank:

Grzpdlr-Sold me the JDM CVT ecu and pre-made the connector harness too!

O2insight-helping dream up and decipher all the wiring changes and necessary stuff and making an awesome write-up I used to complete my ECU swap successfully. Without your contributions we would have no US CVT LB!

KLR3CYL-I believe you helped Grzpdlr physically make all O2insight's wiring, sensor and harness changes happen, and proved the concept worked.

retepsnikrep-Without your many contributions especially the ODBIIC&C monitoring we would all be in the dark.

Mike Dabrowski 2000-Your website guide on howto open and remove ECU harness pins saved me a ton of guessing and cursing.


Grzpdlr asked if I would document my conversion and share it with everyone. I tried my best to capture what I thought was important. If you ever need help with your swap dont be afraid to ask for help. I will try my best.

What are the benefits of this conversion?
  1. Lean burn capability in a US insight
  2. No immobilizer so keys are much cheaper and easier to duplicate
  3. No sensors after CAT so no more po420 CEL
  4. CAT may be removed without triggering CEL
  5. Remove some EVAP stuff
What will I need for the conversion?
  • JDM CVT ECU part#37820-PHM-J51
  • 2000-2004 MT 5 wire LAF sensor part#NTK L2H2:L2A14-H1
  • soldering iron
  • knife or wire stripper of some sort
  • electrical tape
  • flat screwdriver (popping connectors apart)
Optional stuff:
  • x2-Female 4 wire O2 sensor plug ends (premade harness)
  • Female 8 wire LAF sensor plug end (premade harness)
  • crimp ring terminal (ground premade harness)
  • heat shrink (premade harness)
  • wire loom (premade harness)
  • Gutted top CAT or fitted exhaust section (both optional)
  • super small zipties (used to wedge ecm harness connectors open)
  • volt meter probes (used to pry then push wire pins out of harness)
  • wiring diagram
  • ODBIIC&C (led LB indicator, AF ratio, ECT, IAT)
  • knee pads or seat cushion
  • headlamp
Where can I get a JDM CVT ECU?

Unfortunately these are very tough to get ahold of used, language barriers, few JDM CVT's in parts yards, etc...

I believe they can be purchased still through HONDA Japan as new. I think they are alittle over $1000 USD though.

What is this pre-made harness you speak of?

Quote from O2insight:

"The 5-Wire LAF Sensor from the MT is used. This actually has 7 wires. Since the USDM CVT car has just 2 four-wire connectors for the 2 normal O2 sensors, we re-utilize those wires in the existing harness to send the signals inside the cabin to the ECM. For the 7-wire LAF sensor, 4 of the signals are sent through the 1st O2 sensor's existing wires, 2 are sent through the 2nd O2 sensor's wires, and 1 is a ground connected on the engine. This rewiring is done just to have a cleaner stock looking install using existing wires in the engine harness. Of course one could just run 7 new wires through the firewall directly to the ECM. There is one modification needed on the male connector D on the ECM side. Since a wire for D12 isnt present on the connector, we re-utilize the one for C31 and move it to D12."


ALL HIGH RES PICTURES IN THIS THREAD ARE HERE:https://www.dropbox.com/sh/wz3jyop0chhypfy/AAD4SDlkBHrEpsCvGjlwRzBja?dl=0





Do you have pictures of this harness?

I tried to make a picture showing the harness, and also adding in some drawings of how to wire it all. I am not sure who to credit on the drawings I added sorry.

To make a similar harness you can sacrifice your two old original CVT O2 sensor plug ends. These will cover connectors 1 and 3. You will still need an additonal 8 connector female plug from a 5 wire LAF sensor for connector 3.





Where does the harness connect under the hood?






to be continued below.....
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
331 Posts
Discussion Starter #2 (Edited)
continued from above...



What does a 5-wire LAF lean burn sensor look like?

Its similar looking to the CVT original O2 sensor, but has a much larger 8 connector end plug. Again this is why we make the harness to carry the extra sensor output into the ECU. Do not be confused, the plug has 8 connector slots, but one is empty so only 7 pins are actually utilized for the conversion.



Ok I have the right LAF sensor, but where does it go?

Be paitient and watch your knuckles these sensors can be TIGHT!!!



Ok, good! I am done, can I close the hood now?

Hold on! not soo fast. Now that our CVT is going to be lean burn capable, we need to ensure we are using its full potential.

Our lean burning insights love to breathe warm air. I have an effective way to do just that.



ok you can close the hood now.

continued below...
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
331 Posts
Discussion Starter #3 (Edited)
How do I need to modify the ECU harness?

Ok make sure you have everything you need.

  • super small zipties (used to wedge ecm harness connectors open)
  • volt meter probes (used to pry then push wire pins out of harness)
  • wiring diagram
  • knee pads or seat cushion
  • headlamp
  • soldering iron
  • knife or wire stripper of some sort
  • electrical tape
  • flat screwdriver (popping connectors apart)
One more thing before you go any farther. Please be sure and go here:http://99mpg.com/mima/pininstall/installation/05openingtheharness/

Read all the way through and it will save you alot of time and headache, and maybe even some potential wiring/connector problems. It is possible to use volt meter probes to extract/push the pins out. You also can use very tiny zipties to wedge and hold open the white connector locks if you do not have the same things Mike uses.



What should I do with all these pins I removed?

Here is how I did it.







Can we drive yet?

Almost, you need to do one more step so you can fully enjoy the CVT lean burn experience.

You will need to switch your ODBIIC&C from US mode over to UK mode. You also need to change your USECM parameters over to UKECM parameters or half of your LCD will read xxxxxx.

I have a link here to the ODBIIC&C cheat sheet to guide you through all that in a snap. http://api.viglink.com/api/click?format=go&jsonp=vglnk_141801132022212&key=54dcb3e7506d6cc87b15f18e24807fc8&libId=1b4ebc91-01fa-4dd4-bcbb-9bb521948546&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.insightcentral.net%2Fforums%2Fmodifications-technical-issues%2F20488-obdiic-c-gauge.html&v=1&out=https%3A%2F%2Fdocs.google.com%2Fopen%3Fid%3D0B709uu8iXfBON2J4TGVpR2RkWms&ref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.insightcentral.net%2Fforums%2Fsearch.php%3Fsearchid%3D2286602&title=OBDIIC%26C%20Gauge%20-%20Insight%20Central%3A%20Honda%20Insight%20Forum&txt=https%3A%2F%2Fdocs.google.com%2Fopen%3Fid%3D0B70...2J4TGVpR2RkWms

Are you sure it works?

See for yourself!


http://youtu.be/CEZiSPJBYb8


http://youtu.be/kbVCQPbi8Ps
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
434 Posts
Wow! Incredibly exciting! What's this, now 3 lean burn CVTs in the US? Amazing!
So,if I have a possible connection in Japan... small... And I was to beg them to look for a part number... is this part number (37820-PHM-J51) the only part number for the CVT lean burn ECU? Or, is it one of those parts that changed numbers due to year/small changes, etc...?
Anyway, congrats! Can't wait to hear how it gets on!
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
331 Posts
Discussion Starter #5
This is a quote from O2insight:

"The part number for the earlier JDM CVT ecm is 37820-PHM-J51
for the later ~04-06, its 37820-PHM-J52"

So far the CVT has been great with lean burn. Very smooth and it will engage even at slower speeds. I have seen it engage as low as 10mph and will accelerate gradually without dropping out at that speed.

It is not uncommon to see 20+ amps assist while in lean burn climbing small hills through town.

My next hope is to eliminate the purge cycles. Then even grandpa and grandma can jump in the insight set and forget the vernier throttle cruise at 28 TPS all while lean burning the entire trip. No fiddling with the pedal or even watching the FCD. "the hypermiling car so easy even grandma pulls 60mpg!"
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,761 Posts
FYI, the JDM CVT is very similar, if not the same, Fuel/Engine wise to the MT LeanBurn Insight. For example it uses the same pistons as MT, so its actually an MT engine (same Compression ratio). JDM CVT uses return fuel system like the MT, same fuel pump as the MT. Same injectors as the MT

So even though you got the JDM CVT ECU enabling lean burn, the Engine/Fuel systems are still from the USDM CVT (SULEV). I am not sure how much of a difference it might be making to the LB operation. I think some of the changes that USDM CVT's have might just be due to EPA and the SULEV rating and may not really affect LB that much. If someone is really daring, they can change all Engine/Fuel related things to the manual version as it is supposed to be in the JDM CVT, but that's a lot more work with unknown benefits at the moment.

(An interesting note though about the engines. The original pistons used in the USDM MT and CVT are different part#'s, thus giving the engine different compression ratio. But the oversized pistons as usually used in a rebuild are the same between a CVT and MT. Not sure why...)

By the way, a correction to the LAF Sensor written above. The 5 wire LAF is only used on the 2000 insight, and I think maybe early 01's as well. After that they went to 4 wire. And the Part# for it is NTK 24301

I never understood what is the function of the Idle stop switch in the USDM CVT's. The JDM CVT insights dont have the Idle stop switch A31 and still AutoStop fine

JDM CVT also doesnt use Pin A28 on the ECM (Shift Lock Control). The US CVT ECM outputs 12v through A28 (SLC) when the brake is pressed and throttle is closed to activate the solenoid and disables the shift lock, but the JDM CVT ECM doesnt use A28, so the US cvt shift solenoid wont unlock since now there is no 12v output from A28 SLC when you press the brakes. The only reason the US CVT has this SLC is as an additional safety measure to make sure someone is not pressing the throttle while trying to shift out of park, so the ECM is needed to watch the TPS signal, but in the JDM CVT, it simply uses the BrakeSwitch activation 12v voltage. To activate the solenoid in a US car with JDM ECM, wire A28 in the car which goes to C8 in the cluster needs to see 12v when brakes are pressed. Since the JDM ECM Cant provide it via A28, we improvise and get the 12v from the brake pedal switch A32 which is 12v when brake is pressed. So the wire from the car for A28 is just removed from the ECM Plug and joined with A32 as shown in the diagram above.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,761 Posts
Been thinking if a US MT ECM can be used in a US CVT car. I remember reading someone put a MT ecu in a CVT and was able to start and drive the car a little, but had the D light flashing. I couldnt find that post anymore to see if there were any more details in that.

The main difference that we currently cannot "hack" is the 2 communication lines between the ECM/TCM. The rest would just require some rewiring.

I noticed that the TCM gets all the CVT related signals directly, but also gets all of the same needed engine signals that are present to the ECM via individual lines (RPM, ECT, MAP, TPS, Brake Switch, IAT).

I'm wondering if anybody has tried to see what these serial lines are communicating.

If anyone with a CVT wants to experiment, they can try disconnecting the 2 wires between ECM/TCM (C11, C15) and see what happens. See if the car still drives normally with the flashing D. You would get the P1655 error indicating loss of communication between TCM/ECM.
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
10,589 Posts
You can't use an MT ecm in a CVT for the reasons you have stated.
There is no workaround for that lack of comms between the ECM/TCM.

The TCM comms is interesting, further analysis it's on my to do list ;)
I have captured quite a bit of data from it.
There is a thread for that so have a search about.

Good effort Stueveo, nice upgrade. :)
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
132 Posts
You can't use an MT ecm in a CVT for the reasons you have stated.
There is no workaround for that lack of comms between the ECM/TCM.

The TCM comms is interesting, further analysis it's on my to do list ;)
I have captured quite a bit of data from it.
There is a thread for that so have a search about.

Good effort Stueveo, nice upgrade. :)
One of the JDM ECM's I bought came with a TCM from the same vehicle. I tried it in my Lean Burn modified Insight. The car ran rough and for some strange reason the IMA went down to 30% SOC and wouldn't go higher, so I took the TCM out. It did not however throw any codes.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,761 Posts
One of the JDM ECM's I bought came with a TCM from the same vehicle. I tried it in my Lean Burn modified Insight. The car ran rough and for some strange reason the IMA went down to 30% SOC and wouldn't go higher, so I took the TCM out. It did not however throw any codes.
When you say it ran rough, do you mean the engine being rough, like even during idling? or was it rough during driving as in roughness in the cvt operations?
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
132 Posts
When you say it ran rough, do you mean the engine being rough, like even during idling? or was it rough during driving as in roughness in the cvt operations?
Before I hooked it up I checked every wire on the US connections versus the JDM and they were identical (one wire color was different but the function was the same) however the car seemed to have dead spots on acceleration and overall lack of power. It was fine at idle.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
434 Posts
This is a quote from O2insight:

"The part number for the earlier JDM CVT ecm is 37820-PHM-J51
for the later ~04-06, its 37820-PHM-J52"
So, if I have a 2002, do I need to get the 37820-PHM-J51, or will either suffice?
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
331 Posts
Discussion Starter #16
So, if I have a 2002, do I need to get the 37820-PHM-J51, or will either suffice?
My CVT is a 2001 model. From what I can tell I think the J51 or J52 will both work. Keep in mind the wiring and parts are all sorted for you on the J51 already. I think the J52 will work if that's all you can find but it may require a little different wiring setup if they had some differences.

This is the only one I've found. Search for Genuine Parts - Amayama Trading



image.jpg
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,814 Posts
A few questions:

How hard is it to get the O2 sensor out, 15 salty Chicago winters seems to freeze everything up. Any tricks? Should I get the engine thoroughly up to temp and then try with a large breaker bar? Do I need a special O2 sensor removal tool, or will a standard metric wrench work?

Any tips on getting the passenger carpet pulled up? I suspect I will need to pull the passenger seat out, but I still wonder if I can get the carpet up far enough near the shifter.....

Stueveo - can you also supply a link (not embedded) or tell me what I can search on you tube for your videos? I have an iPad and the links don't work, and I can't figure out what to search for on you tube for your videos.

Thanks.
 
1 - 20 of 131 Posts
About this Discussion
130 Replies
23 Participants
[email protected]
Honda Insight Forum
We’re the ultimate Honda Insight forum to talk about Honda’s hybrid car and its fuel economy and specs!
Full Forum Listing
Top