[cakley]

edited

 

[Insightful Trekker]

Re: Letter to Honda - Jerking-hesitating-bucking problems

Another perspective:

Given your long history here in regard to this particular issue I hope you finally get the answer(s) you are seeking. However, many of your past posts are clearly in contradiction to the facts you outline above.

AND you have omitted issues of the modifications you have made.

What you do not yet appear to appreciate is the _extreme_ engineering that is incorporated into the Insight. And that its design goal was safe, reliable, reasonable cost, and HIGH MPG. If you choose to drive your car outside this envelope you will experience less that optimal performance. As fast as technology is moving these days it may very well be that TDI is the next wave of the future. But expect different "problems".

The 40 RPM engine speed variation _you_ reported in these groups is a _NORMAL_ lean burn characteristic.

I hope these groups do not degenerate to the level of much of the Yahoo groups in that it becomes a forum for bashing our Insights. It simply appears to me that you have learned that the Insight is not for you.

Why you would choose this forum to dump these issues in is difficult to appreciate.

Sincerely,

 

[Rick]

Let us know what/if they reply.

 

[windmill]

Hello Cakley,
I've reading your post carefully, and I want to share some experience with you about this. At first, I live in a country which is as flat as the world was in the middle ages (well, the people tought)- so no hills for me.
Now I drive always flat straight roads, I feel and see that my Insight has the habit to "jump" out of lean burnig, the car want to run faster, or it feels like (and it is !) you need to "floor" it to keep up with the traffic, in other words: my Insight needs a "modulating rh feet" during cruising/ steady speeds. By saying this, I define this as normal vtec-e behaviour.
As other Honda vtev-e 's are sharing this same thing, but in a less drastic way, the Insight does. In the beginning (6 years ago) I was thinking it was a "oversensitive" vtec system. Other owners reported this as well, like: my car runs faster by itself, or "it can't keep up", it's holding back, I feel the same in my Insight, it's not steady on speed and rpm's while my foot is in a steady position !!! Now I know better this is also a normal system operation.
The only thing I don't know yet is when, and at what exactly rpm the "lean-burn" mode kicks out, I estimate that this happens arround 2100 rpm's, or maybe this is an event, wich I may see as a variable.
Because of this I desperately want to built in cruise control, so my foot don't hurt anymore due to "modulating" the throttle.
As I have defined my experience, is this the same way you feel it?

 

[Yves M.]

Hi,

I see two issues here:

1) the highway steady speed where yes, the engine going into and out of lean burn will make the car a little bit faster/slower and you need to modulate the speed. I too am pretty sure this is normal as out of lean burn , the catalytic converter will expell the NOx for a few seconds and then engine has more power, then go back to lean with less power. So this is normal.

2) The slow speed bucking is an other story:
- maybe bad gas, try an other store for a while
- clugged fuel injector, maybe have a local garage clean them (not a dealer that does not know more). I think that the fuel additives are bad for the catalytic converters
- something dirty into the Idle Air Control Valve

I could scan the Service Manual for you, the two pages about injector replacement for the guy who will clean them if necessary
and there are also two pages for the ICV troubleshooting: There is not much, they check the idle speed to 900 rpm but theyalso ask to check for a vacuum leak, has that been checked on your car?

EDITED: I just saw that the hesitation was already discussed at great length, maybe there is nothing new to my suggestions

 

[Guest]

Re: Letter to Honda - Jerking-hesitating-bucking problems

Once on open roads and I can get up to 70+mph the car is almost impossible to stay in lean burn and get good MPG’s because of the lack of power.

Lean burn at 70mph? Maybe with a good tailwind or going downhill. I get very little lean burn when driving above 65 mph.

The engine's LAF Sensor is designed to detect air-fuel ratios as lean as 25:1. The fuel-injection Electronic Control Module uses this data, along with engine rpm, crankshaft angle, throttle angle, car mass, coolant temperature and valve position, to maintain a lean air-fuel ratio below 2500-3200 rpm (depending on throttle position and engine load).

70mph puts you at or near the top of the 2500-3200 rpm range.

 

[cakley]

I've got 48,000+ miles on the car. So when I say its not the same then its not the same. PLUS I read that others are having the same "bucking" problem. SO ITS REAL.

2500-3200 RPMS is when its most likely to happen. Though its hard for me to duplicate.

FUEL- I used premium fuel (should've read the manual!) for the first 45000 miles.. I stay away from racetrak gas station because I notice the Insight as we'll as my Audi TT and supercharged LT1 camaro had poor performance. Other than that I use different gas stations.

As I said before I normally feel it when in 3rd and in traffic.

I'm not an engineer by no means. But I do know my car and I know that I am a customer! For Honda to sell a great product and then not train the techs is not good business. To only test drive the car for 2 MILES! is unsat! To overfill the oil is UNSAT!

 

[cakley]

Hi,

I see two issues here:

1) the highway steady speed where yes, the engine going into and out of lean burn will make the car a little bit faster/slower and you need to modulate the speed. I too am pretty sure this is normal as out of lean burn , the catalytic converter will expell the NOx for a few seconds and then engine has more power, then go back to lean with less power. So this is normal.

I've put alot of miles on this car. So I know when its purging the NOx!

My complaint isn't really about the engine problem. Its with HONDA's lack trained techs and poor customer service.

 

[cakley]

Re: Letter to Honda - Jerking-hesitating-bucking problems

edit

 

[cakley]

.

edit

 

[Yves M.]

Hi Cakley,

First, I want to let you know that every time I write something it is because I think that it can be usefull. Of course, I can be wrong in the level of usefullness.

The front outside temp sensor is surely only used for the Heat/AC ambiant temp for the passenger.

The probable sensor for fuel adjustment should be the "Intake Air Tempature Sensor (IAT)" located between the air filter and the engine I think.
It seems to be verified with an ODB tool a the Service manual say "Check the IAT with a scan tool" and the reading temp is supposed to be 302 F or higher (or 0 volt) while the key is turned to On. Also they add to check that it reads the ambient temp correctly.

EDIT: The above is for low voltage which sould be the problem but the High voltage ask to check for -4 F as a temp or +5 volts indicated.

Also they say if all else fails to try with a known good ECM. If you have access to one (but that implies key code problems)

 

[cakley]

Hi Cakley,

First, I want to let you know that every time I write something it is because I think that it can be usefull. Of course, I can be wrong in the level of usefullness.

its all good. thanks for the help. Its good to be part of a board were everybody tries to help.

 

[cakley]

I pulled the negative battery teminal and reconnected it. I took a 56 mile trip on the interstate never once noticed a problem. The same on the way home. For the last few miles I was in 5th gear at around 45-47mph with about 1% throttle and it felt a little sluggish. But I'm ok with that.

The car held lean burn and hold normal power. I got 67mpg for the round trip at speeds around 70mph on the interstate with some traffic and a few miles in the city.

Looks like the battery reset helped. :shock:

 

[cakley]

Re: Letter to Honda - Jerking-hesitating-bucking problems

Lean burn at 70mph? Maybe with a good tailwind or going downhill. I get very little lean burn when driving above 65 mph.
[quote="IC Encyclopedia":sph9dbgm]The engine's LAF Sensor is designed to detect air-fuel ratios as lean as 25:1. The fuel-injection Electronic Control Module uses this data, along with engine rpm, crankshaft angle, throttle angle, car mass, coolant temperature and valve position, to maintain a lean air-fuel ratio below 2500-3200 rpm (depending on throttle position and engine load).

70mph puts you at or near the top of the 2500-3200 rpm range.[/quote:sph9dbgm]

Actually 70mph is about 2700 rpms. I think 83mph is 3000rpms. Infact I believe that 4th gear at 3000rpms is 74mph.. I think I got those right.

Yes lean burn is possible at 70+ mph. I can't pull some of the georgia hill but on the downside the car will zoom in lean burn.

 

[lchesler]

Solution to jerking problem

Hi there:

I can concur with your experience. My local Honda folks are not very knowledgeable about the Insight (neither am I though).

I have exactly the same issue as you have described. I was told simply to disconnect the exhaust recirculator valve and leave it disconnected. When I asked if this affected either emissions or MPG I was told no, which from my reading seems like a double error.

I am about to get this valve replaced. Have you guys found any answer to this problem? Should I get it replaced or just live with it?

Thanks,

 

[Tim Maddux]

EGR valve replacement has worked for others (including me) but not apparently for cakely. References:
http://www.insightcentral.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=880
http://www.insightcentral.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13
http://www.insightcentral.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=653

 

[cakley]

My problem is starting to come back again. I had thought and hoped reseting the computer would be the solution.

It's not as bad as before. I think its realated to the weather somehow :?:

 

[cakley]

Could all of those who have an hesation problem reply back with their VIN number, year of car, milage that problem occured, and dealership used ( name,town,state).

I want to compile a list and get Honda to help us out.

 

[jmeubank]

I see you've listed your car for sale on ebay.

Jennie in Hot Springs
2000 5-speed with a/c
Getting about 52 mpg in city now that summer's here

 

[tripple D]

problem in ga.

I feel your pain but there is hope call lake lanier honda. Floyd has gone to
several classes pertaining to insights. Sounds like the problem is your EGR
valve. Hang in there my insight has been the most amazing car i have ever owned. My mileage is in the mid 70's to 80's and i'm always speeding
just have not been caught. I've never really had any problems and i use mine for business,try taking it on along trip the mileage will go up and run much faster.
I've been reading the forum for a year and have learned many tricks so hang in there.