Honda Insight Forum banner

61 - 80 of 101 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
824 Posts
Having noodled on this, I must reverse myself, and say with confidence and from personal experience that you are making the right decision (and a well thought one) in choosing to invest in a new LAF sensor, and the satisfaction of the result will long outlast the apprehension of the cost. (Been there!)

In my case, even though mine was just aged and not throwing codes or causing the car to jerk or run poorly, discovering I could finally go up mild inclines in certain gears without losing lean burn was worth it, as was the 3-5 MPG average I picked up, as well as some really great mileage runs it enabled. (But man, agonizing over dropping that $140 beforehand.......not fun).

In your case, there is a enough of a chance that the current sensor is indeed finished to justify the experiment, and this will make the car much happier. And if not it will give you confidence that you can eliminate this as a problem source once and for all, and peel away an important layer of the onion which for many is the source of a hidden performance drain and the resulting driving displeasure. Not to mention you will have a reference spare. And, you won't have to worry about it for another 100,000 miles or more.

Best!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
167 Posts
Discussion Starter #62
Having noodled on this, I must reverse myself, and say with confidence and from personal experience that you are making the right decision (and a well thought one) in choosing to invest in a new LAF sensor, and the satisfaction of the result will long outlast the apprehension of the cost. (Been there!)

In my case, even though mine was just aged and not throwing codes or causing the car to jerk or run poorly, discovering I could finally go up mild inclines in certain gears without losing lean burn was worth it, as was the 3-5 MPG average I picked up, as well as some really great mileage runs it enabled. (But man, agonizing over dropping that $140 beforehand.......not fun).

In your case, there is a enough of a chance that the current sensor is indeed finished to justify the experiment, and this will make the car much happier. And if not it will give you confidence that you can eliminate this as a problem source once and for all, and peel away an important layer of the onion which for many is the source of a hidden performance drain and the resulting driving displeasure. Not to mention you will have a reference spare. And, you won't have to worry about it for another 100,000 miles or more.

Best!
We will see! The part is on the way.

The more I think on this I surmise that the car being run without a top catalytic converter for a time very likely compromised that wonderful nearly new O2 sensor. That is very possibly why the car is having this issue.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,843 Posts
^ Couldn't it be counterfeit? Maybe why it doesn't have any code stamped into the metal casing like mine? I know there's a lot of counterfeit spark plugs out there...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
11 Posts
I haven't read the whole thread. I had the herky jerky issue years ago on my 03' CVT that I tried everything, cleaning EGR valves, air filter, fuel injector cleaner, ect... I changed the EGR valve (non-OEM) and the issue went away. After that I never got the 60-70 MPG avgs I used to get but that might have been the battery giving up the ghost after it sat for a year.

A few months later I was thinking about a dream I had as I was going to work in the morning & side swipped another car at a stop sign. Very minor damage... looks mater a little so now I drive my other Insight.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,843 Posts
Today on a short errand I was reminded of what possibly could be akin to the 'jerkies' discussed in this thread. Seems like I used to get this symptom more often but haven't for a long time.

Temps have been warm - ambient about 75F, drove maybe 10 blocks, accelerating normally up to speed of about 40 MPH, shifted from 3rd to 5th (not something I'd normally do), dropping engine speed to 1500 RPM and I think I was doing about 35 MPH at that point. I felt a brief warble/jerky, that indecisive feel. I can't remember if assist was in play or not, it certainly was prior to the shift. The engine went into lean burn just after the shift, just after the 'warble'.

The 'jerky/warble' had to be due to the transition into lean burn, in what was sort of an unusual maneuver - shifting from 3rd to 5th, not driving very fast, engine probably just on the cusp of being up to full operating temp...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,843 Posts
Here's some observations from today, brief testing/checking of ideas I posted earlier: ?Diagnosis: Herky jerky still after EGR + plate cleaned...

Let's call this the "TRIPLE-Junction": The transition from 1) background charge/lean burn to lean burn-only, 2) from lean burn-only to no lean burn, and from 3) no lean burn to assist. This is the most complex transition situation when cruising along, say on the freeway, when engine load is increased. Ideally the transition would be seamless - you wouldn't be able to tell that what seems like a single transition -- press throttle, increase power -- is actually made up of 3 transitions...

I was doing that, at about 60 MPH, and observed what happened when gently adding throttle.

The simplest case - and probably what causes the most warble potential - is the transition out of lean burn. This is similar to the case I wrote about yesterday. So cruising along in lean burn, no background charge, adding throttle very lightly until right at the engine load where lean burn is about to drop out. I could feel a slight roughness - you can feel when lean burn's just about to drop out. If you hold the throttle to keep the engine at that load, you might get something that could be described as 'jerkies'. Like I said in the other post, at the margins little things could make the jerkies worse or not, such as an O2 sensor on the fritz, or perhaps crusty spark plugs.

The next level of complexity is having a background charge going, being in lean burn, and transitioning out of that.

As you depress the throttle slightly, background charge will taper down to zero, engine load increases, you approach the lean-burn drop-out load (and somewhere around here you're also at the 'command assist' load). Background charge seems to add a slight amount of extra 'confusion' to the mix. What was slightly warbly before gets a little worse. But I think the biggest difference is that the jump from background charge/lean burn to no background charge/no lean burn and into assist becomes more pronounced, more obvious, more abrupt.

In either situation, once lean burn drops out, assist kicks in fairly swiftly. I wouldn't call it a smooth transition. It's akin to the AC compressor kicking in and out. There's undoubtedly various programming meant to handle all this, and it seems pretty obvious that it'd take some complicated stuff to get it all perfectly smooth.

So basically, at the 'triple-junction' you can easily get warbly behavior, probably more like 'jerkies' depending on how well tuned other things are.

If I had to guess, I'd say maybe OP was seeing a different background charge regime after he replaced the pack, did resets, etc., and then the triple junction warbles became more obvious. And underlying all this might be some non-optimal stuff, like flakey O2 sensor and crusty spark plugs.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
167 Posts
Discussion Starter #67
Having noodled on this, I must reverse myself, and say with confidence and from personal experience that you are making the right decision (and a well thought one) in choosing to invest in a new LAF sensor...
I haven't read the whole thread. I had the herky jerky issue years ago on my 03' CVT that I tried everything, cleaning EGR valves, air filter, fuel injector cleaner, ect... I changed the EGR valve (non-OEM) and the issue went away...
If I had to guess, I'd say maybe OP was seeing a different background charge regime after he replaced the pack, did resets, etc., and then the triple junction warbles became more obvious. And underlying all this might be some non-optimal stuff, like flakey O2 sensor and crusty spark plugs.
Thank you all for your continued thoughts and attempts to help me out.

Something @*sean* said the other day catalyzed me into a spending frenzy. The statement was something to the effect of "...the G1 Insight degrades gracefully as the many parts that make it what it is slowly fail one by one..."

So, my thinking up until the last few days was to never not ever spend more on this car restoring it than it's worth. I figure, with the low miles and excellent condition and many new parts I've added, that it's worth maybe $4500 to the right person. So I flatlined there and refused to put more than that into the car. However with the world falling apart and me rarely doing anything for myself I decided what the heck let's get the car in tip top shape without going too crazy.

So in the last few days after probably reading for 17 hours on these forums I've ordered new indexed plugs, a new O2 sensor (the good one), and new RE92 tires. Tires were just an impulse buy (my car has Hankooks, previous owner). If after install of the first two the jerkiness is still there I'll be ordering a WVE or Dorman EGR valve. If that still doesn't fix it I'm going to drive from Georgia to the west Coast and leave it with Scott and pay him whatever he requires to fix it.

OK I'm not serious on that last part but once all the above is done I'll have invested about $5k total (purchase plus all repairs/mods) in a 139k car in "A" condition with zero rust, a perfect interior, new Bumblebee battery with 3 year warranty, new cat, new O2, new RE92s, S2000 wheel, new indexed plugs, master cyl, slave cyl, rear springs, windshield, rear motor mount, plus a dozen other things I've done to the car. I'll enjoy it probably for a long time as I seem to have become obsessed with this car in only 5 weeks of ownership. What started as a buy/fix/restore/enjoy for a short time/sell one day and break even project has become something far beyond what I expected, but in a good way. Am I justifying spending more than it's worth? Of course I am. I am very fiscally responsible and don't normally spend money this way. But....I love cars and this one grabbed my heart. YOLO!!!

I'll be installing the incoming parts one at a time to see which one (fingers crossed) fixes this problem...and I'll surely report back on that!!!!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,843 Posts
....However with the world falling apart and me rarely doing anything for myself I decided what the heck let's get the car in tip top shape without going too crazy...I've ordered new indexed plugs, a new O2 sensor (the good one), and new RE92 tires.
Good call. Very sensible purchases. Forget about 'what the car's worth' - they're not worth a whole lot in any shape. Far more value to be had making the car perform well and enjoying that performance... You can cut down on other forms of recreation, reduce those $ outlays, and just take a drive instead. Win-win, as they say...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
167 Posts
Discussion Starter #69
Good call. Very sensible purchases. Forget about 'what the car's worth' - they're not worth a whole lot in any shape. Far more value to be had making the car perform well and enjoying that performance... You can cut down on other forms of recreation, reduce those $ outlays, and just take a drive instead. Win-win, as they say...
Thanks. I don’t know, I might contest that. The used car market is horrible right now with the pandemic but I have bought and sold a lot of cars and tend to be pretty accurate as to what they are worth. With these cars there is just a very niche market but I think the right person would pay decent money for it, I just might have to wait for them to come along.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,843 Posts
^ That's ringing some bells, maybe you posted another thread about the 'value' question... In any event, yeah, I guess it depends on how much money you have, or on individual particulars. In the scheme of a lifetime (or remaining life) - $5000, $10,000? - doesn't seem like much to me. Juxtapose that with the 'enjoyment value' of the car over say 10 years, 20 years? - that seems like a lot more than $5000-$10000... I'd rather enjoy my car for 10 to 20 years than have that money, basically.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
167 Posts
Discussion Starter #71
^ That's ringing some bells, maybe you posted another thread about the 'value' question... In any event, yeah, I guess it depends on how much money you have, or on individual particulars. In the scheme of a lifetime (or remaining life) - $5000, $10,000? - doesn't seem like much to me. Juxtapose that with the 'enjoyment value' of the car over say 10 years, 20 years? - that seems like a lot more than $5000-$10000... I'd rather enjoy my car for 10 to 20 years than have that money, basically.
Yeah that other thread was me trying to figure out what the car might be worth before I started putting money into it. That was back when I first bought it. The thing is I own three cars, four if you count the one my wife drives. None of them are worth much money but still. But you are right and it is an investment, even if I lost 10 or 20% of the value versus what I put into it I would still get most of my money back barring additional high ticket repairs. So it’s sort of like a savings account on wheels. So yes enjoyment is worth much more than that 10 or 20% I might lose...at this point that would only be maybe 500 or a thousand dollars which is totally worth driving the car for a few years and enjoying the heck out of it. Heck I watched a man gamble away $500 in two minutes at a casino once.

A generation 1 Honda insight is a gamble, but not that much of a gamble!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
74 Posts
Yeah that other thread was me trying to figure out what the car might be worth before I started putting money into it. That was back when I first bought it. The thing is I own three cars, four if you count the one my wife drives. None of them are worth much money but still. But you are right and it is an investment, even if I lost 10 or 20% of the value versus what I put into it I would still get most of my money back barring additional high ticket repairs. So it’s sort of like a savings account on wheels. So yes enjoyment is worth much more than that 10 or 20% I might lose...at this point that would only be maybe 500 or a thousand dollars which is totally worth driving the car for a few years and enjoying the heck out of it. Heck I watched a man gamble away $500 in two minutes at a casino once.

A generation 1 Honda insight is a gamble, but not that much of a gamble!
I haven't followed this entire thread but I had a mildish case of herky jerky I couldn't solve by cleaning the egr plate or valve until the car threw a tps code. I replaced the throttle position sensor and it was gone. There are some good threads on doing that here.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
167 Posts
Discussion Starter #73
I haven't followed this entire thread but I had a mildish case of herky jerky I couldn't solve by cleaning the egr plate or valve until the car threw a tps code. I replaced the throttle position sensor and it was gone. There are some good threads on doing that here.
Thanks. I'd like to look into this. Each time I learn of a new possibility of my issue, I go searching. I've probably spent 3 hours each reading about the EGR plate, EGR valve, plugs, and O2 sensor. To save me from that perilous process again with the TPS sensor, would you mind linking me to the best and most definitive thread you know of on this subject?

Much appreciated!!!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
37 Posts
I wrote earlier how i have identical issues, with the car being maintained at the dealership the whole life.
1) i got my obd2 scanner working. The phone i was using was the issue. New phone, no problems. Whew! Now i can watch what the o2 sensor and tps are doing. (O2 still seems to read fine. Havent gotten herky jerkys yet while logging)

2) i remembered the previous owner hand wrote a small list of items he did himself outside the dealership. On that list is O2 sensor and spark plugs. Nice! Maybe i have the wrong parts installed.

I'll keep in contact if i find something and if i can screenshot the graphs if i get some telling data, i will do so.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
167 Posts
Discussion Starter #75
I wrote earlier how i have identical issues, with the car being maintained at the dealership the whole life.

I'll keep in contact if i find something and if i can screenshot the graphs if i get some telling data, i will do so.
Refresh my memory....so you're the same as me, when leaving lean burn and engaging IMA you get the jerkiness? Please confirm and keep us updated, I'm curious as to what your remedy will be.

*

UPDATE: I installed my indexed "B" plugs last night. I didn't reset the ECU (not sure if that is necessary every single time) but I drove about 20 miles today and the problem is NOT fixed. Next I'll be installing my new NTK 24301 upstream O2 sensor, and see what happens, and report back on this thread.

If that doesn't fix the problem, the next things I'll be doing are: (a) new EGR valve (WVE by NTK 4F1006, recommended by Scott aka klr3cyl) and (b) new tps sensor. Both are cheap and relatively easy to do. Beyond that, if this problem persists, I will be stumped.
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
11,763 Posts
Interestingly I have the same problem as you on my project car 320,000 miles.

It stumbles at certain throttle positions mostly associated with lean burn.

I've fitted a brand new EGR and a new NTK O2 sensor, no significant change.

I have a second hand TPS throttle intake assembly <80,000 miles which I intend to fit this weekend.

I'll do the egr plate and vtec screen as well.

I'll check the plugs and the coils at the same time.

I'll report back next week.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
167 Posts
Discussion Starter #77
I haven't followed this entire thread but I had a mildish case of herky jerky I couldn't solve by cleaning the egr plate or valve until the car threw a tps code. I replaced the throttle position sensor and it was gone. There are some good threads on doing that here.
Thanks...I did some searching and see 158 TPS threads. Would you mind linking me to the best and most comprehensive thread/info you know of to help wit the TPS replacement? That would be super epic and save me time. I've spend so many hours searching on this site I'm starting to dream about it.

Interestingly I have the same problem as you on my project car 320,000 miles.

It stumbles at certain throttle positions mostly associated with lean burn.

I've fitted a brand new EGR and a new NTK O2 sensor, no significant change.

I have a second hand TPS throttle intake assembly <80,000 miles which I intend to fit this weekend.

I'll do the egr plate and vtec screen as well.

I'll check the plugs and the coils at the same time.

I'll report back next week.
It would be super epic to hear about what you discover. I'm starting to feel hopeless on this as I keep throwing parts at it which seem like a waste of money since they aren't helping. And the fact that you've done the same stuff I've done/are about to do is disconcerting, since you aren't able to fix the issue either. I'm starting to think the only way to resolve this is to drive the car off a cliff.

So....please keep me posted!!!!
 

·
Premium Member
2001 5S "Turbo"
Joined
·
10,690 Posts
Maybe there is another Insighter in your area that could drive your insight and see if the "problem" is as you state. If I was closer, I would like to do that.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
167 Posts
Discussion Starter #79
Maybe there is another Insighter in your area that could drive your insight and see if the "problem" is as you state. If I was closer, I would like to do that.
Thank you sir. If you were I'd love for you to drive the car and see what you think. However though I am new to this platform I feel fairly confident that Honda would not have made the car this way from the factory, there is something that needs to be remedied here for sure, this is not simply a thing that can be fixed by "adjusting my driving habits".

I will chase it down soon I am sure!!!!!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
37 Posts
Refresh my memory....so you're the same as me, when leaving lean burn and engaging IMA you get the jerkiness? Please confirm and keep us updated, I'm curious as to what your remedy will be.
Correct. I'll be lean burning along just fine. Let me try and describe this. I am rolling happily along at ~60mph, FCD @ 75mpg. 100% sure i'm in lean burn based on throttle position and actively making sure i'm in lean burn. Unsure if background charging is happening. I'm sure this has happened while not forced charging.

Slight uphill coming up. I slowly press the throttle further, awaiting for the car to either drop out of lean burn or assist, whichever comes first. FCD dropping.. 70...65.60.55. car feels like it's falling flat on its face, less power than lean burning along at 75mpg FCD. then the bucking begins. Yehaw. at this point i'm probably 55mph and below. Doesn't feel like i'm back to stoich. If I had to guess, it almost feels like the car was trying to stay in lean burn (due to practically zero power from the gasoline engine) and the car is bucking pretty violently, engine banging off the slop in the worn motor mounts. Decelerating.. bucking as long as I leave my foot in it. (I think I can keep moving my foot almost to the floor and the symptoms remain). To fix, I lift off throttle completely, then reapply gas sharply to make sure it's not in lean burn. all is well, assist is normal, running stoich.

Also heard back from previous owner. The O2 sensor was honda OEM. The spark plugs were correctly indexed OEM. He cleaned the EGR a while back and suggested cleaning it again.
Wish there was some sensor feedback of EGR flow (EGR temp sensor) so we could characterize what it's doing. I'll be graphing TPS/AFR/O2.
 
61 - 80 of 101 Posts
Top