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Discussion Starter #1
Hello all, My car its been giving me 3 IMA codes: 58, 66(P1568), 74(P1449), which I already diagnosed using the repair manuals, by testing the BCM terminals and these are the results:

* C9 and C20: 13.1
* C20 and C7: 12.9
* C7 and C18: 13.2
* C18 and C5: 12.7
* C16 and C15: 13.1
* C15 and C14: 13
* C14 and C13: 13.1
* C13 and C12: 12.9
* C12 and C11: 13
* C11 and C10: 13.1

as I understand according to what the repair manual says to the 74 code troubleshooting:

"Is the difference between the highest and lowest voltage more than 1.2 V?
YES - Replace the battery module.
NO - Substitute a known-good BCM module, and recheck. If the
symptom/indication goes away, replace the original BCM module."

and what it says about the 66 code:

"Is each measurement about 7 V or more?
YES - Substitute a known-good BCM module, turn the battery module switch ON, and recheck. If the symptom/indication goes away, replace the original BCM module.
NO - Replace the battery module"


according to that I guess the battery is in good condition, and the BCM need to be replaced, but I need an expert who can confirm my suspects, since im new to this. Any help would be appreciated :)

Note: I've already grid charged and discharged the battery a couple times not a long ago, the max it always reach is 177V

My car is a 2000 insight M/T
 

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The manual is bunk. 7V or more is complete nonsense. Not sure what Honda was trying to convey there, but taken at face value, that criterion is stupidly incorrect.

You have a COMPLETELY dead battery. A battery with any usable charge in it should NEVER read below 14.4V per tap (resting).

You have one or more of the following:
1) one or more dead cells on each tap
2) one or more cells with excessive self-discharge ON EACH TAP (EDITED)

IMHO, it's most likely #2.

Given that you've reconditioned it, it's likely completely spent.

Does it top out at 177V because current stops flowing, or is current still flowing at 177V?
 

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Discussion Starter #3
The manual is bunk. 7V or more is complete nonsense. Not sure what Honda was trying to convey there, but taken at face value, that criterion is stupidly incorrect.

You have a COMPLETELY dead battery. A battery with any usable charge in it should NEVER read below 14.4V per tap (resting).

You have one or more of the following:
1) one or more dead cells on each tap
2) one or more cells with excessive self-discharge

IMHO, it's most likely #2.

Given that you've reconditioned it, it's likely completely spent.

Does it top out at 177V because current stops flowing, or is current still flowing at 177V?
Yeah it tops out at 177V, the instructions of my grid charger says that if voltage stays at X number and doesn’t reach in 4 hours the charge is complete.

Do you know any method to test the sticks, so I could swap one or 2 sticks that may went bad.
 

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Did you read the tap voltages after a charge or after a discharge?

Sam
 

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Yeah it tops out at 177V, the instructions of my grid charger says that if voltage stays at X number and doesn’t reach in 4 hours the charge is complete.

Do you know any method to test the sticks, so I could swap one or 2 sticks that may went bad.
What grid charger, and is it still reporting current flow at 177V?

How did you actually read my response and walk away with "one or 2 sticks that may went bad?"

If your voltage measurements are right, YOU HAVE AT LEAST 13 BAD STICKS, BUT IT'S MORE LIKELY THAT YOU HAVE 20 BAD STICKS.
 

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Those voltage readings look suspect, unless you measured after a deep discharge - i.e. they look fairly even, too even to have the typical problems, yet they look too low to be real unless you measured after a deep discharge... Check your meter's accuracy...

The manual is bunk. 7V or more is complete nonsense. Not sure what Honda was trying to convey there, but taken at face value, that criterion is stupidly incorrect.
7V averages out to 0.583V per cell, which is around the typical low voltage after self-discharge, a voltage that stays for a long time. Anything lower means a cell is most likely truly bad, rather than simply completely discharged.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Did you read the tap voltages after a charge or after a discharge?

Sam
The car is been sitting for about 2 weeks, prior to that I discharged and charged it 3 times, and it worked fine for about one week with no codes, but if I leave the car with the SoC full in the night In the morning when I had to use it again just with a little use of assist the SoC started to drop along with bat and brake lights on, until it reaches at least 4 bars the lights came off
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Yeah it tops out at 177V, the instructions of my grid charger says that if voltage stays at X number and doesn’t reach in 4 hours the charge is complete.

Do you know any method to test the sticks, so I could swap one or 2 sticks that may went bad.
What grid charger, and is it still reporting current flow at 177V?

How did you actually read my response and walk away with "one or 2 sticks that may went bad?"

If your voltage measurements are right, YOU HAVE AT LEAST 13 BAD STICKS, BUT IT'S MORE LIKELY THAT YOU HAVE 20 BAD STICKS.
It is the maxxx volts one, idk how can I know if there’s current flow it is like 177V and 292mA

I was thinking that not a lot of cells were bad since the cars runs fine after a grid charge, but some issues start next day but no trouble codes until at least 5 of more days since last charge
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Those voltage readings look suspect, unless you measured after a deep discharge - i.e. they look fairly even, too even to have the typical problems, yet they look too low to be real unless you measured after a deep discharge... Check your meter's accuracy...

The manual is bunk. 7V or more is complete nonsense. Not sure what Honda was trying to convey there, but taken at face value, that criterion is stupidly incorrect.
7V averages out to 0.583V per cell, which is around the typical low voltage after self-discharge, a voltage that stays for a long time. Anything lower means a cell is most likely truly bad, rather than simply completely discharged.
Idk what those terminals I tested are connected to, I guess to the cells or sticks, my meter’s is accurate I think, it is brand new and digital
 

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It is the maxxx volts one, idk how can I know if there’s current flow it is like 177V and 292mA

I was thinking that not a lot of cells were bad since the cars runs fine after a grid charge, but some issues start next day but no trouble codes until at least 5 of more days since last charge
Your conclusion might be true if you didn't have the 10 tap voltages. Those tap voltages indicate bad sticks everywhere.

292mA means it's still flowing current, and IIRC, the peak voltage on the MV is higher than the HA unit. My concern was that you were hitting the max voltage on the charger.

Good sticks don't lose their charge after a 2 week sit. Period. This is especially true after being "reconditioned" through whole-pack charge/discharge.

I'm now 99% confident that scenario #2 is the most likely; however, I didn't clarify "every tap" in that one, i.e., you have at least 1 bad stick per tap... likely two per tap.

Can you provide a detailed account of your charge/discharge process?
 

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Those voltage readings look suspect, unless you measured after a deep discharge - i.e. they look fairly even, too even to have the typical problems, yet they look too low to be real unless you measured after a deep discharge... Check your meter's accuracy...



7V averages out to 0.583V per cell, which is around the typical low voltage after self-discharge, a voltage that stays for a long time. Anything lower means a cell is most likely truly bad, rather than simply completely discharged.
They look like dozens of packs that I've seen that won't hold charge.

Highly unlikely that Honda would tailor their diagnostics for high mileage packs with many years on them that will self-discharge over the course of months, that have in fact sat for several months before being towed into a dealership. The reality is that a healthy pack tap will NEVER read as low as 7V.

Following the Honda Diagnostic tree leads one to replace the BCM, when you and I both know that he has a bad battery.

The car is been sitting for about 2 weeks, prior to that I discharged and charged it 3 times, and it worked fine for about one week with no codes, but if I leave the car with the SoC full in the night In the morning when I had to use it again just with a little use of assist the SoC started to drop along with bat and brake lights on, until it reaches at least 4 bars the lights came off
That screams failed battery.

Idk what those terminals I tested are connected to, I guess to the cells or sticks, my meter’s is accurate I think, it is brand new and digital
Each of those measures a pair of sticks in series - 12 cells.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
It is the maxxx volts one, idk how can I know if there’s current flow it is like 177V and 292mA

I was thinking that not a lot of cells were bad since the cars runs fine after a grid charge, but some issues start next day but no trouble codes until at least 5 of more days since last charge
Your conclusion might be true if you didn't have the 10 tap voltages. Those tap voltages indicate bad sticks everywhere.

292mA means it's still flowing current, and IIRC, the peak voltage on the MV is higher than the HA unit. My concern was that you were hitting the max voltage on the charger.

Good sticks don't lose their charge after a 2 week sit. Period. This is especially true after being "reconditioned" through whole-pack charge/discharge.

I'm now 99% confident that scenario #2 is the most likely; however, I didn't clarify "every tap" in that one, i.e., you have at least 1 bad stick per tap... likely two per tap.

Can you provide a detailed account of your charge/discharge process?
I charged till 177V, then discharged to about 90V, the recharged to 177V again, discharge to about 60V, charged again, last discharge to about 40V, and the last charge to 177V again
 

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I charged till 177V, then discharged to about 90V, the recharged to 177V again, discharge to about 60V, charged again, last discharge to about 40V, and the last charge to 177V again
What was the approximate charge time each time?

Were you able to discharge through the MV harness, or did you have to make your own?
 

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Discussion Starter #14
I charged till 177V, then discharged to about 90V, the recharged to 177V again, discharge to about 60V, charged again, last discharge to about 40V, and the last charge to 177V again
What was the approximate charge time each time?

Were you able to discharge through the MV harness, or did you have to make your own?
About 22-24 hours each charge, discharges were very variable because each time I discharged it lower.

I made my own harness and discharger, actually I made 2 harness since I have 2 Insights, that are always plugged in, in each car that I use for charging and discharging, the other insight it’s been acting pretty well since the last charge-discharge-charge that I performed about 2 weeks ago (the time the other one is been sitting)
 

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My Take.

1) No you most likely don't have a bad BCM. That's very rare and usually associated with a HV short circuit fault and leaky stick failure. ..

2) You didn't charge long enough after discharges IMO. Needs minimum 24hrs and ideally 30hrs.

3) You tap voltages if correct are pretty poor and indicate multiple stick problems.
Ideally all the sticks/taps should be within 50-100mv of each other.

I suggest get the pack out and apart, do some proper stick level cycling on the bench with data including 1C capacity, IR, self discharge rate and high current load tolerance.

Off course to do all that you will need skills, some reasonable kit and plenty of time.
You will almost certainly need more sticks to try and build a good pack.

Cut your losses perhaps and buy a new set of sticks or a warrantied sh set from one of the US suppliers.

Or go IMA less and wait until you can go lithium..

Has the battery fan been working when you have been charging? Can you hear it?
Is this a recon or original oem pack?

There are a few typos in the workshop manual and where it says 7v per tap it should read 14+v. If your voltmeter is working your sticks are flat as a fart..

Recon chinese stick packs do not like grid charging or cycling that much and can expand and leak like sieves under charge stress.. :(

Take it all apart, post some pics, measure each stick voltage then we might be able to advise further.
 

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About 22-24 hours each charge, discharges were very variable because each time I discharged it lower.

I made my own harness and discharger, actually I made 2 harness since I have 2 Insights, that are always plugged in, in each car that I use for charging and discharging, the other insight it’s been acting pretty well since the last charge-discharge-charge that I performed about 2 weeks ago (the time the other one is been sitting)
I agree with Peter. MV charger has lower current. 22-24 hours is not long enough regardless of their recommendation. 292*23 = 6716mAh input, and it's nowhere close to 100% efficient. Cooler temperatures can also impact it adversely.

To comply with the ANSI standard for capacity determination, you need to put in 0.65A for 16 hours or 10,400mAh to ensure the cells are fully charged. That's 10,400/292 = 36 hours. Your first charge likely wouldn't need to be this long, but subsequent ones would as you know they are empty or near empty.

I suggest get the pack out and apart, do some proper stick level cycling on the bench with data including 1C capacity, IR, self discharge rate and high current load tolerance.

There are a few typos in the workshop manual and where it says 7v per tap it should read 14+v. If your voltmeter is working your sticks are flat as a fart..

Recon chinese stick packs do not like grid charging or cycling that much and can expand and leak like sieves under charge stress.. :(

Take it all apart, post some pics, measure each stick voltage then we might be able to advise further.
I disagree with Peter on the stick work suggestion. I have NEVER seen individual stick work improve over pack level work by a significant amount. You MIGHT see some small benefit, but given the condition of your pack, I would expect zero returns on massive effort.

Glad to know of the typo. IIRC, it's in the HCH1 and HCH2 manuals as well.

Agree on potential issues with Chinese stick packs. I had a < 3 year old Hybrid Revolt pack essentially go from 18 mostly functional sticks (2 were dead-cell) to complete and total junk within a few short months. Grid charge/discharge did the most good. Stick work went south fast. The biggest factor was likely that it was a dealer lot queen that mostly sat for the better part of a Phoenix summer.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
1) No you most likely don't have a bad BCM. That's very rare and usually associated with a HV short circuit fault and leaky stick failure. ..

2) You didn't charge long enough after discharges IMO. Needs minimum 24hrs and ideally 30hrs.

3) You tap voltages if correct are pretty poor and indicate multiple stick problems.
Ideally all the sticks/taps should be within 50-100mv of each other.

I suggest get the pack out and apart, do some proper stick level cycling on the bench with data including 1C capacity, IR, self discharge rate and high current load tolerance.

Off course to do all that you will need skills, some reasonable kit and plenty of time.
You will almost certainly need more sticks to try and build a good pack.

Cut your losses perhaps and buy a new set of sticks or a warrantied sh set from one of the US suppliers.

Or go IMA less and wait until you can go lithium..

Has the battery fan been working when you have been charging? Can you hear it?
Is this a recon or original oem pack?

There are a few typos in the workshop manual and where it says 7v per tap it should read 14+v. If your voltmeter is working your sticks are flat as a fart..

Recon chinese stick packs do not like grid charging or cycling that much and can expand and leak like sieves under charge stress..


Take it all apart, post some pics, measure each stick voltage then we might be able to advise further.
Before taking it apart do you think I should give it another grid charge to 30-36 hours?

What kit do I need to do the stick cycling process?

I’ve seen hybrid revolt sells individual sticks in their webpage, beside them, where else could I get them from?

Yeah I’ve been IMAless before just by removing the under-dash IMA fuse, but the car is slow as hell 😓and I got a CEL, I’ve seen there’s a mod to trick the system and turn the CEL off but I don’t understand very well how.
How hard and expensive is to convert it to lithium?

Yes, the battery fan works, and Idk if it is the Original pack or not, how can I figure it out?
 

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Discussion Starter #18
I agree with Peter. MV charger has lower current. 22-24 hours is not long enough regardless of their recommendation. 292*23 = 6716mAh input, and it's nowhere close to 100% efficient. Cooler temperatures can also impact it adversely.

To comply with the ANSI standard for capacity determination, you need to put in 0.65A for 16 hours or 10,400mAh to ensure the cells are fully charged. That's 10,400/292 = 36 hours. Your first charge likely wouldn't need to be this long, but subsequent ones would as you know they are empty or near empty.


I disagree with Peter on the stick work suggestion. I have NEVER seen individual stick work improve over pack level work by a significant amount. You MIGHT see some small benefit, but given the condition of your pack, I would expect zero returns on massive effort.

Glad to know of the typo. IIRC, it's in the HCH1 and HCH2 manuals as well.

Agree on potential issues with Chinese stick packs. I had a < 3 year old Hybrid Revolt pack essentially go from 18 mostly functional sticks (2 were dead-cell) to complete and total junk within a few short months. Grid charge/discharge did the most good. Stick work went south fast. The biggest factor was likely that it was a dealer lot queen that mostly sat for the better part of a Phoenix summer.
Both of you agree that I didn’t charge it long enough, I ask you the same I asked Peter, do you think that if I charge it one more time for 30-36 hrs it could make it better?

You already bought new sticks from hybrid revolt and they didn’t last what they should, what did you do next?
 
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