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I chatted a bit with IamIan tonight. He has built one A123 pack and run it for a couple of years. He assures me that 50 cells will fit within the stock case - without separators. One of your earlier posts showed the inside dimensions. He is currently working on a new design version, again fitting into the OEM case.

I don't feel that an LTO base pack is ever going to fit into the OEM case because of the low specific energy of that chemistry. If it can fit the OEM footprint, with BCM and MCM on top, then it isn''t drop-in. You can look at pictures from any of the LTO conversion threads and see how tight the fit was, using every inch of available space inside the aluminum box.

I think it might help contain cost and batch demand number if you could obtain one set of the A123 cells from the earlier batch buy. I don't know where to find any of those sets, but if you send a "conversation" to ericbecky, he may know where some of the sets are held. My set went to a guy who is no longer active on the forum. That would give you something inexpensive to work with.
 

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Discussion Starter #162
jime - Thanks for the suggestions. I'll put together my own pack of fresh cells. For this thread, I'll be glad to get the "drop-in" configuration for everyone. Not being a purist on this particular project, my LFP or LTO pack will not use the OEM NMH frame. I'm working on a new aluminum alloy with graphene to increase thermal conductivity. So, I might try to put a thin sheet between each LFP 20Ah cell to move heat in or out. 49/16 = 3". It's mainly to warm up the cells evenly in the winter (don't charge when any part of the cell is below 0°C).

Once the "drop-in" pack/module configuration (4s, 5s, 10s, 20s, 30s) is firmed up by the group, I'll get some prices.
 

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Discussion Starter #163
I got prices for the 20Ah LFP (A123) modules: 20s, 30s and 50s, but the tap wires are all in black color. Also, they need to see a photo of the Sil 0.1" Female plug.
 

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There are many styles and mounting methods for Sil connectors. This pdf spec. sheet is fairly typical. With this Female plug, a small printed circuit board would be required for mounting. I didn't look in detail, but I believe there are plugs available which have removable pins which can be soldered directly to tap wires. Peter could confirm this.

 

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Discussion Starter #165
It would make it a lot easier if we can show my battery supplier exactly what we want so that they can shop for the right plugs. Otherwise, they will just provide the wires with bare ends for us to solder the plugs ourselves. I'm willing to solder my own plugs to save some money. Just need to be careful. I can ask them to drain the modules down to 10% SOC if we can sell these modules within a few months. However, it'd be better if the modules came with the plugs.
 

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Discussion Starter #168
For the 20s+30s modules, I see ten (10) tap wires. So, should I ask them to look for a plug with ten ports?
 

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It is always #taps+1. So, for 10 taps there are 11 (or12 for convenience)wires-9 taps in the middle plus the two ends. Peter would be better to pick the actual tap wire/plug, but seems to me that one would want I plug for each module, so maybe two plugs one of 8 wires and one with 6 wires. Peter is showing 8 wires, so maybe two of those. I can look around for a part number if Peter doesn't have the time or it isn't already handy:)

Maybe I've lost the plan within the discussion.

SORRY, I screwed this up. Going back and rereading the earlier posts, I don't see that there was closure on the total number of taps. If we plan ahead for a BMS, this has been inferred, then there would be 21 tap wires on the 20 cell block and 31 taps on the 30 cell block. A BMS requires tap access to every cell. I think I shall desist for the moment;)
 

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Discussion Starter #170
An image with a part no. would be best, but just an image or photo should work. Thanks.
 

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Discussion Starter #172
I work with KOK Power, and the quotes for the LFP 20Ah cells are from KOK. For the pouch cells, KOK offers a bolt-on arrangement also as shown in one of my earlier postings. They can build the pack for you with the wire taps. Once they find the wire connectors, they will let me know the final 20s and 30s module prices. The 20Ah LTO cell was one of my earlier considerations along with the 2.9Ah LTO cell. Prismatic cells are easier to assemble yourself, and the 2.9Ah cells will be able to fit inside the dimensions of the OEM NMH frame (72s2p - 960Wh). The LFP 20Ah cells (50s1p) will be 3.3kWh.
 

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Discussion Starter #174
88289

88291

Using a plug identical or very similar to the above with the color wire tap order in the schematic shown on top. If this statement is good, then I'll ask KOK to give us a quote for 100 modules of 5s.
 

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Discussion Starter #175
A123 20Ah pouch cell in 5s1p modules with 5-wire taps of a different color for each wire (as shown above in the schematic) with a 6-pin connector similar to the one shown above in a 100 module order will cost US$103.45 per module EXW or FOB Dongguan, Guangzhou, China. Ocean shipping cost to a UK seaport will be US$580. Someone will need to clear this shipment and pay any required import duty and fees. You can T/T (wire) the funds directly to KOK Power. I will provide that information once you decide to make the purchase.

If other people would like to purchase the same modules to be delivered to the U.S., please let me know, and I will find out the shipping cost.
 

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Do you mean 100 modules i.e. 100 x 5 cells (500 cells) is the minimum order? 100 x 103$ = $10300!!

I thought you were ordering some prototypes to test and evaluate etc.

I am/was prepared to buy a sample 10 x 5 cell modules (enough to build one pack) to support the project but.......
 

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Discussion Starter #177
I guess I misread the initial 500 cell order to build ten packs of 50 cells per pack. I plan to order a pack to test once I figure out all the necessary electronics for adapting to the OEM sensors and controllers. It sounded like there were multiple parties interested in ordering one set. Maybe in time, there will be enough interest to order 10 sets.

If going with the LTO 2.9Ah cells, it would be 66s2p, how would you do the modules and wire taps?
 

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I guess I misread the initial 500 cell order to build ten packs of 50 cells per pack. I plan to order a pack to test once I figure out all the necessary electronics for adapting to the OEM sensors and controllers. It sounded like there were multiple parties interested in ordering one set. Maybe in time, there will be enough interest to order 10 sets.

If going with the LTO 2.9Ah cells, it would be 66s2p, how would you do the modules and wire taps?
66S does not divide by ten into whole numbers so you will need a standard BCM Fooler.
Loads of info about that on here..
 

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Very interesting to see this thread pop up since the last time I visited the forums, it has a lot of useful information that has been spread across the forums. Not to step on any toes, but the "find it yourself or GTFO" mentality of some of the veterans here is also the reason I prefer the FB group.

I also live in the PNW, and have a '01 5MT Insight with some of Peter's boards standing by. I have a functional 8Ah Bumblebee pack but I'm also interested in pursuing a kit-based Lithium conversion, both for increased capacity as well as additional power through current hacks. Rear hub motors could also be in my future, despite their drawbacks. My expertise is in solar and off-grid NMC/LFP powerwalls, and the only vehicle packs I have experience with are LV ebikes and scooters.

I agree with Peter on 50S LFP, but was pursuing a A123 26650 based pack that could be easily configured to any shape required. Prismatic EV cells are easier to work with, but harder to fit in the confined space... A 50S/10P pack of these cells was what I was considering:

Obviously with these cells, busbar ampacity would be a concern. However for testing I can obtain these cells in bulk at ~70% health for ~$50/KWh. I'm glad the issue of BMS has been discussed, however I would note that a "mosfet based" BMS could be used for balance function only, and another system used for power cutoff. Unfortunately there are limited offerings for a 50S system, and if the vehicle is not charging the pack to full voltage, active balancing is the only option. My plan was to use the diyBMS by Stuart Pittaway for my build, and see if there was a way to add CANbus functionality. https://github.com/stuartpittaway/diyBMSv4

My understanding of the required systems is the required components are as follows: A battery pack that sits somewhere in the 120v-192v range and capable of outputting at least 150A and charging at 100A, a BMS to balance the series cells, and a "magic box" that communicates between the BMS and the vehicle. In an ideal world, this box would have 10 isolated circuits to feed the voltage taps (Expensive and complex), and take signals from the BMS and send them in CANbus to the vehicle for SOC and temperature (And any other data I'm not thinking of right now)

I had also taken interest in Peter's experiments with higher voltage packs. If I remember correctly, the motor and inverter were bulletproof and capable of handling the higher voltage with no noticeable issues? This would be another reason to go with a higher voltage pack, and handle voltage taps with isolated circuits.
 

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Discussion Starter #180
AfterEffect - I agree with you on many points. Li-ion chemistries are in my area of know-how, but I'm new to DIY HEV IMA replacements with Li-ion cells trying to adapt to OEM controller designed for NMH and would be very happy to share what I know about Li-ion chemistries (and getting packs built at wholesale prices). I just don't have the time to read through a million posts. I suggested that we all pool our skill sets to try to come up with a drop-in Li-ion pack with a "magic box" to do all the signal conversions, but got scolded for being too lazy to go through their Boot Camp (ie. read all the posts). One of the senior members accused me of trying to make money off of their hard-earned knowledge. I tried to explain that it's mainly about helping the novice DIY person to do a conversion as easy as possible. Making money is not even a goal. The goal is to minimize these terrific cars from going to the junkyard.

Currently, there are 3 pack ideas floating around:

1. A123 LFP 26650 2.5Ah, 2-modules, 26s4p/module
2. A123 LFP 20Ah pouch cell, 10-modules, 5s1p/module
3. LTO 2.9Ah prismatic cell, 2-modules, 33s2p/module (33s1p can work too, max 87A)

LTO has a high service life and up to 30C in both directions (continuous). I don't plan on using the OEM battery frame and don't care if the new pack is sticking up from the stock deck lines. For me, it's function before form. Here is my email address: [email protected]. Please email me your phone no., so we can figure this out for both of our cars. Or, I can email you my phone no.

Karl
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