[turbogizzmo]

Well this citrus keep tossing all kinds of fun at me. I have my ima battery off and am testing the manual starter and this is what I get. I have a brand new 12volt battery installed and replaced ground straps a month ago....thoughts?

 

[Willie Williford]

IIRR, when starting off the 12V battery, there is a 3-4 sec. delay before the starter will engage.

HTH
Willie

 

[retepsnikrep]

Well that does not sound right...

You have the IMA battery off, but have you unplugged the BCM?

Check starter relay and possibly starter solenoid/starter.

If you hot wire a big thick bit of wire to the 12v Battery+ and touch it on the starter solenoid 12v exit feed does it turn over immediately..

 

[insitegeo]

If you hot wire a big thick bit of wire to the 12v Battery+ and touch it on the starter solenoid 12v exit feed does it turn over immediately..

or one side of jumper cable and just touch it

i suspect that delay circuit kicking in and out on load perhaps a loose or dirty load wire

i would touch the jumper to the starter then follow the wire back and touch it there

out of morbid curiosity i just turned off my ima batt, turned the key to run, waited until fuel pump stopped, turned the key to start, counted 1001 1002 and the starter engaged until release

sounds like yours goes GRUNT, then is commanded to stop trying, (i assume you are holding the key and never releasing) then it goes GRUNT and stops trying (or, are you turning the key to start over and over ) if you are HOLDING THE KEY to start and it is doing this, you need a meter on the selenoid wire to see if it is actually DROPPING OUT then re-energizing, this would mean the car is commanding that action and its in the brains.

if, on the other hand, you are turning the key back and forth, and it goes grunt grunt grunt start, i suspect bad connections that get hot from the interaction and expand and connect (which could also be in the starter OR the battery terminals or the battery itself, put jumpers on another car, dont start the other car, see what happens.).

Colorado? yep you need that starter to work before it hits single digits or less than zero, thats when mine kicks in once or twice a year on the first cold morning startup.

 

[insitegeo]

http://www.insightcentral.net/forums/problems-troubleshooting/18550-starting-problem-engine-will-not-crank.html

http://www.insightcentral.net/forum...ng/22298-weird-12v-starter-performance-2.html

 

[turbogizzmo]

I am holding the key during this whole video and of course this is the longest time it took to finally kick over. I can't fully tell if it's just a relay or if the starter is trying to shoot out durning the "click"

 

[tryingbe]

Are you going to keep the IMA removal permanently? If so, do the relay bypass.

http://www.insightcentral.net/forum...5178-i-modified-starter-relay-ima-bypass.html

 

[mudder]

This looks like a brownout condition that is resetting the ECM's starter relay bypass timer. The ECM waits several seconds for the IMA to start the car, but after that it connects the starter bypass relay. When that relay suddenly energizes the starter - a huge current inrush event - the 12 volt rails drops below 5.7 volts, causing the ECM to brownout, which causes the same relay to open back up, and then the ECM starts the timer again.

So this is definitely a brownout due to starter current demand. Knowing what I do about the G1, it's probably a grounding issue. If not, it's possible the starter has a dead spot in it, which causes the starter to pull way more current than the battery can deliver.

It is not the positive starter lead or solenoid.

If random jiggling doesn't work, get a digital volt meter that has a "minimum voltage" logger (e.g. Fluke 110, or just use an oscilloscope). Connect that to the cigarette lighter (since it's on the same wire harness going to the ECM). See if the voltage drops below ~9 volts while starting.

 

[eq1]

^ I've seen as low as 7.7V using the auxiliary starter without problems...

 

[turbogizzmo]

This looks like a brownout condition that is resetting the ECM's starter relay bypass timer. The ECM waits several seconds for the IMA to start the car, but after that it connects the starter bypass relay. When that relay suddenly energizes the starter - a huge current inrush event - the 12 volt rails drops below 5.7 volts, causing the ECM to brownout, which causes the same relay to open back up, and then the ECM starts the timer again.

So this is definitely a brownout due to starter current demand. Knowing what I do about the G1, it's probably a grounding issue. If not, it's possible the starter has a dead spot in it, which causes the starter to pull way more current than the battery can deliver.

It is not the positive starter lead or solenoid.

If random jiggling doesn't work, get a digital volt meter that has a "minimum voltage" logger (e.g. Fluke 110, or just use an oscilloscope). Connect that to the cigarette lighter (since it's on the same wire harness going to the ECM). See if the voltage drops below ~9 volts while starting.

Everything but one modified connector is unplugged in the trunk. It's running in offroad mode. I will check all the grounds again. All the cables were replaced under the hood.

 

[turbogizzmo]

More data:

The clicking sound in the video is both the relay and the starter is making clicking sound

If i hook straight from battery to starter i can start the car everytime

The voltage to the two connections at the starter are around 12 volts

If i unplug the smaller cable on the starter and put a volt meter on it and turn the key it holds at 12 volts until you release the clutch or turn the key back

If i put a volt meter in the cigarette lighter and turn the key it drops to .01 until the car starts, strangely the car seemed to start more when I had the leads in the cigarette lighter but it could have just been a coincidence

 

[mudder]

^ I've seen as low as 7.7V using the auxiliary starter without problems...

Depends on where you measure, but yes, 7.7 V would definitely still work if measured at the ECM's supply input.

 

[mudder]

turbo, your additional data almost certainly confirms my previous diagnosis: bad grounds (or less likely bad positive to cabin wire harness). Next steps:

1: Connect volt meter's positive lead to cigarette lighter, and negative lead to battery minus. What minimum voltage do you see when starting? If really low, then the positive lead is damaged somewhere from battery to cabin fuse block.

2: Connect volt meter's negative lead to cigarette lighter, and positive lead to battery plus. What minimum voltage do you see when starting? If really low, then the ground straps are hosed.

Happy tinkering.

 

[turbogizzmo]

turbo, your additional data almost certainly confirms my previous diagnosis: bad grounds (or less likely bad positive to cabin wire harness). Next steps:

1: Connect volt meter's positive lead to cigarette lighter, and negative lead to battery minus. What minimum voltage do you see when starting? If really low, then the positive lead is damaged somewhere from battery to cabin fuse block.

2: Connect volt meter's negative lead to cigarette lighter, and positive lead to battery plus. What minimum voltage do you see when starting? If really low, then the ground straps are hosed.

Happy tinkering.

Thanks for the additional details! I have replaced the ground straps under the hood, three i believe, with some copper looking ones i picked up online new. You can see one of them in the picture above. Are you suggesting it possible these straps arent working well or there other grounds that I should look into pending the tests above?

I was messing around with the jumper cables to see if I could ground the starter/frame to the negative side of battery to see if that made a difference but it didnt seem to but by then I was running out of tinkering time.

 

[turbogizzmo]

Since I didnt have super long leads and fancy meters I started with what it seemed like, more grounds. (With the suggestions above)

Ran to walmart and bought a few of the lawnmower battery cables. I had been poking around last night online and found this thread http://www.insightcentral.net/forum...59-repaired-upgraded-engine-ground-wires.html I noticed the starter cabled seemed to run into that area so I put another ground from that suggested bolt in that thread to the battery ground in the firewall. I also added the other cable over one of the ground spots I have the replacement ground cables.

I assume the replacement cables arent making enough of a ground connection or are crappy. So far today the car has started on the first click! I still need to run further tests when I can drive around a bit more.

 

[insightbuyer]

I have the same exact issue with my 12 volt starter. It starts sometimes and sometimes it doesn't. Eventually with enough key flicks it will start. This is of course with my IMA turned off.

I am assuming this is just bad 12 volt grounds? My ground cables are intact but the bolts are rusty.

Should I Just run a direct ground cable from my starter to the battery and just be done with this issue for good? I'm pretty sure its a grounding issue but I just am curious if running a ground directly from my starter to my 12 volt battery will be an issue?

I would spice into the ground wire connected to the starter and run a wire over to the 12 volt battery negative terminal.