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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
I'm testing my EGR valve to eliminate it as a possible cause of my MPG issues.

First questions:
(1) What is "herky-jerky"? I experience a very mild jerkiness in lean mode. Hard to differentiate it from normal road vibrations; however I can tell because it is a front-back movement instead up-down. I only notice it because I drive the car regularly; others would not.
(2) Have some people with "herky-jerky" cured it with an EGR valve replacement?
 

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I'm testing my EGR valve to eliminate it as a possible cause of my MPG issues.

First questions:
(1) What is "herky-jerky"? I experience a very mild jerkiness in lean mode.

Basically it feels like the engine looses power for an instant and then runs normally for an instant. Hence the nickname "herky-jerky".

The engine needs to be thoroughly warmed up to have a smooth lean burn. My car won't go into lean burn until I see at least 154° F coolant temperature with my OBDIIc&c with the ambient air temperature above ~68°. At that point I may feel the slightest amount of "hesitation". A few more degrees of coolant temperature rise and the engine smooths out.


(2) Have some people with "herky-jerky" cured it with an EGR valve replacement?

I found a new looking 1997 Acura 3.0 CL V-6 Siemens EGR valve at my favorite junk yard for $5. It cured my herky-jerky.


I measured the sensor voltage while driving with my OBDIIc&c. While in lean burn the sensor measured a constant 0.9 volts.

Unfortunately I don't remember what the max sensor voltage was when I was checking the valve[edit] OUT of[/edit] lean burn. I seem to remember something like 3 volts. But that wouldn't be the applied voltage to the solenoid.

Do your tests show that the valve is open at all with a 0.9v sensor reading? I haven't tested my original EGR valve to determine that.

I bought used 2001 Accord valve (ebay, $18 ) to experiment with. Same connector, same mating surface, but wider top and it did not fit without some "encouragement" (I have not tried to fully install it yet).

I found a way to bench test the Accord EGR valve by holding it open with 6 V, then pushing it closed with my finger while monitoring the potentiometer leads (from the connected, EGR not opened). (It takes 0.6 volts at 6 V and 1.8 amps at 13.8 volts but I have a feeling it is not designed for constant operation at the higher voltage, so I would not advise extended operation at a high voltage.)

I would guess that the voltage to the solenoid is a pulse width modulated X volt signal. Your 6 volt DC applied voltage would amount to 50% PWM drive if the peak voltage is 12 volts DC.

Also since the EGR plate has a restriction plug in the passage to each cylinder, the EGR valve probably has very little movement to reach the maximum flow rate that the restrictions would allow.

Please explain what "It takes 0.6 volts at 6 V ..." means. Is 0.6v the sensor output voltage at 6 volts or perhaps you mean the solenoid current is 0.6A at 6 volts?

I found that the valve's resistance changed linearly through most of the travel, but when partially open, it deviated from this straight line, indicating that the wipers may have cut through the material in this area, where the valve most likely operates most.

This means that the Accord EGR, a junkyard special, is No Good. It gives erroneous position readings in the range it would be used most. The ECU would then command it to reposition. Could this cause "herky-jerky"? Thus the questions above.

Sure sounds like it could. But that assumes that the bad area is used mostly in lean burn. That raises the question of which wears out the sensor's resistance the most, moving to the 0.9 volt lean burn spot or the normal variation of the sensor voltage when not in lean burn.

You could answer that question by varying the solenoid voltage to give a ~0.9 volt sensor reading and see if that is in the bad area of output voltage.

The next step is to run this test on the Insight valve in the car. I have a feeling it will behave similarly just from having read about potentiometer wiper problems being common. I am working out a way to test it without removing it from the car.
Use a OBDIIc&c. One of the things it measures is the "EGR feedback" which must be the sensor output voltage.

Since you have a known defective Accord EGR valve you can correlate my 0.9 volt steady reading in lean burn with where the bad area of the sensor output is at and what solenoid drive voltage gives that reading.

I wouldn't expect that Honda would have the wiper on the sensor completely at the "zero" end of it's voltage output range when the valve is depowered. In that case the 0.9 volt reading I saw might be a very low or no PWM being applied to the valve.

Hopefully Peter or someone with the complete Insight electronics test bed can fill us in on this.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Do you have any EGR harnesses? I am getting ready to build an EGR valve tester.
When you get your testor finished, I got one I want tested. I "think" it is good/forums/images/smilies/confused.gif/forums/images/smilies/confused.gif
If the valve is out of the car, you don't need to wait for me to build a tester, but it will be a great excuse for another local get-together. I found that the cheapest analog voltmeter from Wal-Mart ($15) is perfect for a manual bench test because you can easily see the needle jump when you manually force a powered valve closed and the potentiometer wiper hits a bad spot. Not so easy to see with a digital voltmeter. And it might take several tries to see it. (I actually ran to Wal-Mart to buy an analog meter.)
 

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Sean,

I assume that the EGR solenoid winding has a 0-12V range. Think that might be correct? The solenoid signal comes from the the ECM, so it "could" have most any range.
 

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If the valve is out of the car, you don't need to wait for me to build a tester, but it will be a great excuse for another local get-together.
I agree. I'd be up for a indoor, "hobby" day of EGR testing, building, soldering, maybe some other indoor lightweight topics. Do you have a heated room where we could do it?

I could also show off my LTO conversion to a few locals.

I'd host myself, but Richmond is a long distance to try to pull D.C. area folks:(
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
I agree. I'd be up for a indoor, "hobby" day of EGR testing, building, soldering, maybe some other indoor lightweight topics. Do you have a heated room where we could do it?

I could also show off my LTO conversion to a few locals.

I'd host myself, but Richmond is a long distance to try to pull D.C. area folks:(
I cannot host but I understand there are maker spaces at several NoVA libraries. Never seen them. I will ask a friend who knows about this. They have 3D printers so that may be a time to make any needed parts.

I may be able to do Richmond, BTW.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 · (Edited)
An Arduino configured to drive a used EGR valve on the bench and measure the resulting position provided data that resulted in the plot below. The discontinuity is a clear sign that the position sensor has an intermittent section where it travels most and needs to be replaced.

Blue Text Plot Line Font
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 · (Edited)
This is the EGR valve in my Insight. Didn't have to take the valve out of the car to test it.

This valve was not throwing codes or giving me herky-jerky, and the EGR plate was relatively clean. But replacing this led to a noticeable MPG improvement.



This valve is clearly faulty and needs to be replaced.

The shifting track explains why the position sensor is needed: the supply voltage cannot be used alone as a reliable indicator of valve position.
 

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Very interesting development. I assume the X axis to proportional to solenoid voltage and the Y axis is proportional to measured resistance across the variable resistor??? I might furnish a loaner of a new EGR valve, depending on how much I have to pay;)

Re a meet, if your friend could square the library room, then I assume the library would condone some diy equipment brought in?
 

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Well this is promising...
I let this one run a little longer... the bad section of the pot really stands out. This valve is straight from some junkyard and I've made no attempt to clean the carbon from it. So it will be interesting to see how it behaves after a good soaking.

View attachment 77205
Interesting, nice contribution to the forum, keep up the research.

Assuming the horrible variations are at the slightly valve open end of the track, that fits in well with worn potentiometer symptoms in the critical lean burn stability area..

The ECM gets confused by the non linear wildly varying feedback at the worn part of the track in the EGR, and then commands the EGR with wild movements trying to compensate.

Result can vary depending on how bad the carbon track is, between mild lean burn stability issues to horrible herky jerky and kangarooing...

Fix = replace EGR or repair and fix/flip feedback potentiometer in valve top.
 
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