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I found this thread so intriguing that I joined the forum. I'm considering getting an Insight with failed battery pack (because they're dirt cheap) and applying my own turbo design. I read almost all 23 pages of this thread but didn't see an answer to my question, so here goes. Is there any reason that the IMA-based alternator design could not be applied to a 24VDC system?
 

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I found this thread so intriguing that I joined the forum. I'm considering getting an Insight with failed battery pack (because they're dirt cheap) and applying my own turbo design. I read almost all 23 pages of this thread but didn't see an answer to my question, so here goes. Is there any reason that the IMA-based alternator design could not be applied to a 24VDC system?
It could totally work. Just get a Mean Well HRP-600-24 or 1000-24 instead of the 600-12 or 15.

EDIT: Welcome to the forums!

Be advised that you probably won't be able to top the batteries off 100% as the 600-24 will likely top out at ~27v and ideally you'd be at 28-29v. It should work well enough though.
 

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I remember Mr. Perkins put a system on a sports car in England. Just for the tax breaks to make the car a hybrid. Expensive sports car .
 

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I found this thread so intriguing that I joined the forum. I'm considering getting an Insight with failed battery pack (because they're dirt cheap) and applying my own turbo design. I read almost all 23 pages of this thread but didn't see an answer to my question, so here goes. Is there any reason that the IMA-based alternator design could not be applied to a 24VDC system?

I'm curious why you would want to convert the electrical system to 24VDC. Is there some advantage to doing that?
 

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Discussion Starter #5
It could totally work. Just get a Mean Well HRP-600-24 or 1000-24 instead of the 600-12 or 15.

EDIT: Welcome to the forums!

Be advised that you probably won't be able to top the batteries off 100% as the 600-24 will likely top out at ~27v and ideally you'd be at 28-29v. It should work well enough though.
That is good news! My electric turbo will require two lead-acid batteries wired in series, and using an available 10kW IMA as an alternator seems like a no-brainer. The turbo motor will leave the exhaust unrestricted but draw some current, so I will need a stout alternator. Thanks for the info.
 

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I'm curious why you would want to convert the electrical system to 24VDC. Is there some advantage to doing that?
He asked if it could be applied to a 24vdc system

If he wants to convert the INSIGHT system to 24 volts, its possible but I'm sure the stock ECU and components would not enjoy it. So he'd likely want to step voltage down for all of those things.

IF he wants to apply the IMA based alternator design to a 24 volt system, another issue is that with this power supply there's not much output at idle for a 12 volt system. RPM would need a slight bump, I'm sure, to effectively charge low batteries in a 24 volt system. I'm not sure.
 

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That is good news! My electric turbo will require two lead-acid batteries wired in series, and using an available 10kW IMA as an alternator seems like a no-brainer. The turbo motor will leave the exhaust unrestricted but draw some current, so I will need a stout alternator. Thanks for the info.
Clunker,

The only "electric turbos" I've seen that are effective are based on 48 volt systems, as found in a few cars made by, what was it, volvo, or VW?

Here's a link:
https://autoweek.com/article/car-news/volvos-new-electric-supercharger-explained

The other "electric turbos" have been debumked many times.

If you could get your hands on one of these electric turbos made by an OEM it'd surely provide a small boost, atleast at low RPMs, they're designed mostly for spool up of main turbo(s).
 

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Discussion Starter #8
I'm curious why you would want to convert the electrical system to 24VDC. Is there some advantage to doing that?
Sorry I missed your post before my last response. The turbo design completely eliminates any interaction with the exhaust system. It is powered exclusively by a high-torque, high-speed 24VDC motor. The advantage is an electronically-controlled boost that synchronizes with fuel delivery (completely independent of engine speed). No more turbo lag. If this sounds familiar, it's because Ferrari recently patented it, but I came up with the idea years ago. I don't want to hijack this thread, but that's my reasoning for needing 24V.
 

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and using an available 10kW IMA as an alternator seems like a no-brainer.
Let's assume your idea of using the IMA to charge the twin 12v battery works, 10kW is about 13.4 HP.

To get 13HP out of the Insight's gas engine to drive the 10kw IMA motor, you'll be revving the engine at 2000rpm or above, not accounting for energy lost in heat during the transfer.






The advantage is an electronically-controlled boost that synchronizes with fuel delivery (completely independent of engine speed).
Adding boost means the engine will be operate outside of its parameters setup by the manufacturer. What are you planning to do to the fuel management and ignition advance/retard?
 

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For the sake of not hijacking another thread, I'm starting a new one.

I am planning to buy a 1st gen Insight and modify it with an experimental turbo. Forum members on another thread have been discussing using the IMA as an alternator to charge the 12V battery after the NiMH battery pack has failed, and this is sort of a tangent from that thread.

I plan to run two 12V lead-acid batteries, wired in series to achieve 24V. The added voltage will be enough to power a high-speed 24VDC motor, connected to a Garrett GT15 compressor (totally independent of the exhaust). Other than a few components, the rest of the car's electrical will still run off 12V power. Since the Insight is already drive-by-wire, it should be a simple bit of electronics to synchronize compressor motor speed with fuel delivery.

As with any turbo modification, the conversion may involve additional changes (larger injectors, disabling certain ECU functions, retarded timing, etc.). All of this has been successfully done before with conventional turbos, so I'm not too worried about complications. I'm not looking to build a performance car. Probably just a 5 PSI boost to compensate for the lack of an IMA.

To answer a few questions from the other thread. 24VDC with 1,000 CCA (24kW) is overkill to power the turbo motor (remember this is only a 1.0L engine), so I don't see any reason to bump up to 48V.

tryingbe
A totally stock Insight already uses the IMA as its sole alternator, and it has to charge both the 12v lead-acid battery and the 144V NiMH pack. I consider eliminating the NiMH pack and adding a second 12V battery to be an even swap as far as demands on the 10kW alternator. Based on other turbo conversions and dyno testing, a 5 PSI boost is more than enough to compensate for the loss in IMA power. No doubt there will be risks to the 3-cylinder engine like blown head gaskets, but that's why you start on the conservative side and accept the consequences if you blow the engine.
 

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Since the Insight is already drive-by-wire
2000-2006 Insights have a throttle cable from the accelerator pedal connect to the throttle.

Probably just a 5 PSI boost to compensate for the lack of an IMA.
There is an easier way to compensate for lack of IMA battery: Install close ratio with shorter final differential manual transmission from a 1st gen Civic Hybrid. See signature.

Let's say your plan works, you will need an ac to dc converter to extract the 10kw from the IMA motor, a $2,300 part and a 51lb weight penalty.
https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/MEAN-WELL/RST-10000-24?qs=%2bk/zvGh84xhXiN0kVNvYIQ==
 

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Discussion Starter #12
2000-2006 Insights have a throttle cable from the accelerator pedal connect to the throttle.



There is an easier way to compensate for lack of IMA battery: Install a manual transmission from a 1st gen Civic Hybrid. See signature.

Let's say your plan works, you will need an ac to dc converter to extract the 10kw from the IMA motor, a $2,300 part and a 51lb weight penalty.
https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/MEAN-WELL/RST-10000-24?qs=%2bk/zvGh84xhXiN0kVNvYIQ==
That's a bummer about the throttle cable. I was sure I read that it was drive-by-wire. I prefer a cable, but not if I'm trying to synch electronics. I'm already planning to get a 5-spd model. Not a big fan of CVT. The other thread was discussing the use of a Mean Well converter for 3-phase AC to 12VDC for only a few hundred dollars. Of course, I would really like to charge at 100 Amps (2,400W) instead of 50, so I will likely select a different model. If it really costs over $2,000 for the converter, it isn't worth it. Lots more to research.
 

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Where are you getting this 24v "turbo" (which sounds a lot more like an electric supercharger to me, since the energy to run it isn't recovered for free from the exhaust but is instead gathered from resistance on the engine).
 

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I'm already planning to get a 5-spd model. Not a big fan of CVT. The other thread was discussing the use of a Mean Well converter for 3-phase AC to 12VDC for only a few hundred dollars.
If all you want is to drive the 5 speed insight with no IMA battery and no IMA/CEL light. $20 of of parts is all you really need. https://www.insightcentral.net/forums/modifications-technical-issues/113817-how-completely-remove-your-ima-battery.html


Meanwell PSU setup is for somebody who wants more space in their trunk area and/or need to go over 4000rpm often since the stock DC to DC converter only supply usable 12v between 1200rpm to 4000rpm. Meanwell setup is not good for hot weather area like AZ, I tried it and went back to stock after a day.
 

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Sounds like OP is unhappy with the Insight's performance without assist and is looking for a novel alternative to replacing the IMA battery or bolting on a mechanical turbo. I'm personally very interested in the outcome of this, even if I think it's going to hurt fuel economy significantly whenever it's used.
 

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^ Agreed, it's an interesting idea and if it could use regeneration from braking/coasting then all the better.

I'm waiting for Willie to chime in here as he will know the effect on fuel consumption when using a turbocharger or supercharger as in this case.
 

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^ Agreed, it's an interesting idea and if it could use regeneration from braking/coasting then all the better.

I'm waiting for Willie to chime in here as he will know the effect on fuel consumption when using a turbocharger or supercharger as in this case.
Unfortunately a small pair of lead acid batteries will not handle 400 amps (10,000w @ 24v) regen rates. Nor could you get a DC-DC converter that could handle that. Heck, even 100 amps will likely trash the batteries in short order. The regen rates safe for 12v lead acid car batteries would probably not even be felt.

As for fuel consumption, turbocharging is basically free, the only economy lost is generally from running rich air fuel ratios at higher levels of boost. Turbos use energy that would otherwise be lost out the exhaust to do useful work.

Superchargers on the other hand are driven by the engine itself, and the energy used to turn them is a direct loss, much like an air conditioning compressor, only typically much larger. If you can't get that electricity from regenerative braking alone (which would need a big and likely expensive hybrid battery), you're going to be generating it with high level of resistance to the engine throughout your driving. The extra power made more than makes up for the power used, but fuel economy suffers.
 

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Just to stimulate thought, you might consider a single LTO pack with easy conversion from 24S to 2P12S. It would have a nominal voltage of 27.6V and is relative friendly to high charge currents - not sure of the peak current spec of such a battery but probably a lot more than 100A.

Consider this site for analysis:

https://www.scib.jp/en/download/ToshibaRechargeableBattery-en.pdf

You might even be able to run your 12V system off a "tap" on the battery, but that would require some careful battery control.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Where are you getting this 24v "turbo" (which sounds a lot more like an electric supercharger to me, since the energy to run it isn't recovered for free from the exhaust but is instead gathered from resistance on the engine).
MichaelWoodcock was right. After a lot more research, it is clear that 24V will not be enough. Two lead-acid batteries with 1,000 amps each would provide plenty of power, especially if they were being constantly charged, but the motor I was thinking of using cannot handle that much current. There are some 96VDC motors that are a much better choice, and they can spool to over 200k RPM.

If I were to stick with my original plan and use two 12V batteries, I already know that I need a $400 AC/DC converter. Now, if I want to power a 96VDC motor, I would need another converter. Some level of efficiency would be lost at every conversion, and the project is heading toward being more expensive than just getting a bumblebee pack and calling it good.

Here's another idea. Rather than reinventing the wheel, why not use the existing system at 144V to power the turbo motor directly. I would still have to replace the battery pack, but I could use much less expensive NiCD cells for about $500. They only have a 5AH capacity, but they will be getting a constant charge. Other advantages of NiCD are far better temp stability, very long self-discharge rate, much lighter than NiMH, and lots more life cycles. The standard 12V battery still gets charged, and I eliminate two convertors (assuming I can find a 144V motor). I'm liking the sound of this.

My reasons for avoiding a standard turbo are both personal and practical. I have been wanting to try this electric turbo for years, and I like the idea of trying something different. On the practical side, contrary to popular belief, an exhaust-powered turbo is not free energy. The exhaust turbine restricts flow, and everyone knows that a free-flowing exhaust is one of the cheapest ways to improve engine efficiency. More importantly, I want instant throttle response. An under-powered car with a tall first gear (5-spd) is the last place you want turbo lag.
 

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As for fuel consumption, turbocharging is basically free,
Energy is NEVER free. The Law of conservation of energy Always applies. Just one detraction a turbo extracts is the back pressure in the exhaust system , causing a less efficient ICE. This compensated, less than fully, by the increased efficiency of higher compression.

The turbo, like the IMA system has other arguments going for it.
 
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