[luvcacabernets]

:?: I am experiencing some "herky-jerky" action on my 2002 Insight CVT. It happens when I'm trying to maintain a steady speed on a level road or a slight downslope. I find that I have to apply a slight amount of gas to maintain a steady speed and when I do that, I get a bit of "bucking" or hesitation. It doesn't happen with my foot completely off the gas pedal or during accelleration.

The information I was given from the Honda dealership was that it was caused by my style of driving. Apparently, you aren't supposed to apply even a small amount of gas in these situations because the car thinks you need boost and it tries to kick into assist mode causing the hesitation.

Somehow, that just doesn't sound right. Is anyone else experiencing this?

 

[Allnighte]

:shock:

i've noticed the same thing, and i don't recall feeling it so much before.

the only thing that comes to my mind is that if you push the pedal down, but not to the point where the Assist will kick in, that the CVT will adjust to the new ratio - like it's supposed to.
but the reason why you don't usually feel it is because if the Assist were to turn on, the power of the electric motor numbs the "bucking" of the CVT

although there was one occasion i remember clearly where i did this slight pedal push, and i felt a STRONG buck, very similar to the feeling of when you run out of gas.

in your case, was it almost audible? or just a slight "umph" that most likely a passenger wouldn't even feel?

 

[luvcacabernets]

Hi,

Nice to hear someone else has noticed it. The bucking is pretty substantial and easily felt by both the driver and passenger. Your description of the feeling you get when a car runs out of gas is on target.

All that said, any suggestions for avoiding it? I hate the idea of being off, then on, then off the gas just to keep a constant speed.

 

[Allnighte]

i just had it happen to me again today. in fact it happened in the same place it happened before!

it happened a lot longer too; i'll try to explain it best i can now

i just left work, 4:30pm, outside temp probably high 60's. made a left at the stop sign, missed the signal onto the main road so i had to wait for a full cycle with the engine still pretty cool and idling in Drive (also taking note at the "lumpy" it is, oh well).
so the light turns green, step on gas, start to head up the hill but the light just before the apex of the hill turns red, make a complete stop (with auto-stop engaging). green light, then a firm pedal push to get up the rest of the hill. i reach the top and let off the gas. i'm going about ~45mph... then it happens
i feel this "lurching" i look down and notice the live mpg readout at below 50. so i'm on the gas pretty good, but the Assist isn't on. that's actually odd how slow i was going, and how low the mpg readout was without Assist.
the "lurching" felt ... well it wasn't as strong as like i was running out of gas (that thought did go into my head though), but it was pretty steady. it was a slow feeling too. kindof as if a tire has a flat spot, giving you this "mmm....mmmm.....mmmm....mmmm...." feeling. they were probably a little more than a half a second apart.

i'll be taking this same route for a while to try to get it to happen some more and figure out what the heck is going on, so stay tuned!

 

[sjwalter]

I've been having this problem lately as well. I took my 2000 Insight (79000+ miles) to a non-Honda repair guy that I trust. He replaced the spark plugs (special for the Insight as we found out) and did an injector cleaning. This made the problem significantly less noticable, but it is still there.

I can't say that I know this for sure, but is seems like as though this started after the last ECM replacement.

 

[garrystanislaw]

This is the same problem I've recently been experiencing. The Honda Technical Center claimes it is a "normal" condition. I don't buy it since the car has run beautifully since 2000. BTW: I don't have a CVT. Mine is a five speed, but the condition sounds identical. I have to accelerate or decelerate, and can not maintain a steady speed.

I've also experienced the VERY slow acceleration, while bucking, with no assist (foot to the floor). When this occurs, I've also noticed that charging while braking is drastically reduced.

Has anyone found a fix?

 

[luvcacabernets]

Hesitation

My dealer eliminated the problem by replacing the EGR valve. Might be worth looking into.

 

[rone]

no bucking here

Just as a sanity check for you, my 2002 CVT with about 3,000 miles doesn't have the problem that you are describing. It's always smooth. I will frequently apply a very light touch to the accelerator pedal (hey, it's not really a gas pedal in the Insight) when going downhill to keep speed constant and it's always nice and smooth.

 

[Motty82]

erased

 

[garrystanislaw]

The problem I'm having occurs far more frequently than just when climbing a slight incline with as little pressure on the pedal as possible. It also happens on level road and when going downhill.

It does occur, and is most noticeable, when applying just enough pressure on the accelerator to maintain a constant speed. Something I've done with this vehicle for 2 years now, and I've never experienceed the jerking and bucking that I'm feeling now. If I'm accelerating or decelerating I don't have the problem. I get a bucking bronco when trying to maintain speed!!

It is a real problem, and not the result of my driving style, and it is most definately not "normal" as Honda suggested. I'll try the EGR valve avenue to see if it has an affect. Wouldn't a bad EGR send up a fault code?

 

[nortoncomando]

In my case, specifically--

My car suddenly began "jerking" at cruise speed with light throttle, and I'm beginning to realize this is a common phenomenon. It becomes particularly noticeable when I slowly add throttle after coasting down-hill: the car literally bucks.

This car has previously had an ECM recall for a chronic "Check Engine" light. (O2 sensor out of range.) Have other cars with the bucking problem had this recall?

My local dealer wants $95 an hour to go on a fishing expedition under my hood, as though it were the first time an Insight had this problem.

As others have said, I refuse to accept that jerking and stumbling are normal for these cars. My fuel mileage hasn't suffered, but it makes for a very uncomfortable ride: it's annoying, it's disturbing--it's like driving with my goofy 12-year-old in the passenger seat. Where's Honda's technical assistance when you need it?

 

[Willie Williford]

Hesitation

Sounds like your EGR valve is starting to go "south". Check with DICK/CHRISTINE he had the same malfunction.

 

[nortoncomando]

have others had this hesitation and jerking problem resolved with a common fix? willie mentioned the EGR valve but it is electrically controlled with a feedback system that would create a fault and 'check engine' light if the valve wasn't opening as comanded by the ECM.
Does anyone know THE Insight tech. support person to go to ? :?:

 

[Willie Williford]

Jerky

If it is an intermenent problem, (not constant) I doubt if you will get a "check engine" light. Don't know what the tme element is in the electrical malfunction indicators......See "Rapoe".

 

[Insightful Trekker]

I would agree that the EGR valve is possible but unlikely, especially without a code.

What comes to mind is the VTEC's system of economy vs. performance. In the economy mode the intake valve opening is staggered. Which is to say one valve is opened later and greater than the other. This creates a vortex, and in combination with careful design a stratified charge. This is the method that Honda has used for over 10 years now in their maximized economy engines.

One potential problem is that the lesser opened valve is more prone to carbon buildup and that this system is very sensitive to such a condition. This would cause a change in the stratification of the charge in the combustion chamber and possibly cause lean misfires.

From what is being reported not enough to trigger a misfire code which takes x RPM of crankshaft variation per power stroke to set, but enough to be felt.

I too can feel a _slight_ harshness in the power of my Insight (15k+ miles now) on light throttle acceleration while maintaining a _high_ MPG reading. This is a normal condition of this lean engines design. It is subjective in discernment, impossible to diagnose without a test drive _and_ requires enough time behind the wheel with a "normal" Insight. Something that any technician in the field will be lacking.

A first step in diagnosis and repair would be to eliminate carbon build-up as a possibility. Chevron makes a fuel additive that will do the job. Maximum effect will take up to three bottles over three tankfuls for the cure. Widely available in any automotive section and will cost about $20 for the three bottles (if all three are needed). Another choice is BG-44K. Usually only available from repair facilities, about $20 for one treatment (which is sufficient) and should show results in 100 miles or so.

http://www.chevron.com/prodserv/nafl/au ... eladd.shtm

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=I ... 1&q=BG-44K


Has anybody in the group got any real data during one of there episodes?


If you already have a Palm or Pocket PC there are adapters that will enable you to access the *basic* functions of the Insight's PCM.

I use this one myself.

http://www.auterraweb.com/scantools.html


There are Pocket PC alternatives (watch the wrap)

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=I ... gle+Search


--

John K. Bullock
Knoxville, TN USA

aka. Insightful Trekker

 

[Rick]

I think I might have to agree with you on the build up. I had been running my Insight all winter long (arizona winter) on my commute to school running it for mileage in lean burn 90% of the time for some 15,000 miles. It still ran fine but this summer so far I've made a few trips around Arizona here and I wasn't really in the mood to take my sweet time getting there so I ran about 80 to 85 the whole way wherever it was. I think I did this for about 500 miles total and despite the fact that yeah the lifetime has been dropping the car has never ran better. It just really cleared the cars throat. I wounder how exactly those of you having this problem tend to drive. I can deffinitely see where lots and lots of lean burn could cause this potentially.

 

[Willie Williford]

Hesitation

I've always felt that a lot of Insighters rely on the "lean burn" mode too much. As I have said many times before, 90% of the vehicles that are driven in "city traffic" fail the "smog check"because of carbon build up in the engine, EGR valve, and exhaust system. Before doing a "smog check", run the vehicle hard and it will clean itself up. A before and after comparassion would validate my theory........... The Little Red Rocket is normally driven like a "regular car" and seldom gets below 2,500 in the 3 top gears. My THEORY, NEVER OVERLOAD THE ENGINE BY "LUGGING". Lifetime MPG is STILL at 59.4 for 82,000 miles......... :twisted:

 

[james]

I guess that's one advantage of mountain driving: a good 2-4000 foot climb or two every week ought to clear out the carbon

Where I mostly see lean burn is on the freeway, running 65-75 depending on traffic. There are like regular bits of upgrade for overpasses, and it drops below 70 mpg on the little climb, then lean-burns at 100+ down the other side and across the flat... Averaging about 72 mpg since I bought it, and that's including what mountain climbing does :-(

 

[nortoncomando]

engine hesitation

This light throttle stumble condition started suddenly after a fill up. Thinking I got some bad gas I put some Heet and an injector cleaner in right away. Next tank I used the high-dollar Chevron Tectron all without helping. Tectron bottles used to say use only one per oil change like maybe the potent detergents get to the oil and could effect seal-life. Three bottles in a row may be bad advice.
I suspect the 5-wire O2 sensor is going bad. The engine feels like it's tring to run way too lean at a steady speed with light throttle below the V-tech cross-over RPM of 2500-2800. Driving style should not matter. The car SUDDENLY started doing this. I had the ECM recall where O2 sensor parameters were changed to stop chronic 'check engine' light. The fault code was always something about 'O2 out of limits'.
I've read that silicone is way more " poisonous" to O2 sensors than lead.
Maybe at that gas station they used silicone grease to lube some O=rings.
And now this high-tech 5-wire O2 sensor has been compromised without generating a fault code. Just my best guess. YO HONDA, some help?
What is the warranty on emission systems these days?
Has anyone had any luck talking directly to a Honda tech. rep.?
Like I said before, my local dealer wants $95 / Hr. to go fishing under my hood and I don't want to pay for their education.

 

[Delta Flyer]

It's amazing the Insight does not hesitate more when you consider it's a three-cylinder, 995cc engine. The only other 3-cylinder car I'm aware of is the Geo Metro Izzu (sp) builds for GM in the US. The documentation at this site states the electric motor is the flywheel that helps keep the gas engine steady.