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^ It's worth noting that those figures in the previous post are probably at higher speeds.

https://www.energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2015/01/f19/fact2013nissanleaf.pdf

I'm seeing 200wh/mile @ 45mph in a Leaf, and 300wh/mile at 60mph.
Yup , context is king.

One of the better published examples of how it isn't just 1 number at any speed .. is this Link for Tesla.



85kwh Model S and a 55kwh 1st Gen Roadster

At the same 50MPH steady speed:
I used about ~179wh/Mile , even with about ~30% of that for ICE parasitic losses.
The 55kwh Roadster showed about ~211 wh/mile
The 85kwh ModelS showed about ~254 wh/mile

Even so, it's pretty astounding how efficient the Insight chassis is.
I couldn't agree more :D
 

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It depends on what you want the end product to do, to be like, etc. But at a glance, these don't look very practical to me. You'd need about 12 batteries to make up the pack, they're 19.5kg (~43 lbs) each, for a total of 234 kg (516 lbs)... So that's about 7 times the weight of the stock pack, equal to about 28% of the total weight of the car in stock form. I think you'd be looking at the need to modify the chassis in various ways to deal with the extra weight - modified suspension, probably simply a pain to fit, etc... Seems like your money (~$4200) would be better spent on some other option...

One other thing: I'm not an expert on such calculations, but it occurs to me that, at 138Ah, you'd be paying for way more battery than a mostly stock car would ever effectively utilize. 138Ah X 12V =1656 Wh, 1656Wh X 12 batteries=19.9kWh. Say you can use about 85% of the pack capacity, you'd be looking at a roughly 17kWh pack - in a gas-electric hybrid with only a 10kW electric motor... 17kWh is approaching EV size... Theoretically you might be able to get, say, 17000Wh / 300Wh(?)/mile = 57 mile electric-only range... But of course, with only a 10kW electric motor you're not gonna get there very fast...

This all sounds like the wrong pack for the car - too big, too heavy, too expensive, more energy than you'd ever need, etc...
These batteries take apart easily so I wondered whether they could be configured differently I will look at one of them in bits to see what can be done
 

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These batteries take apart easily so I wondered whether they could be configured differently I will look at one of them in bits to see what can be done
Earlier when I posted I had looked up Valence batteries and from what was listed assumed you were talking about the "U27-12XP 12.8 V 138 Ah 19.5 kg," at this webpage: https://www.valence.com/products/standard-modules/xp-module/

Is that what you're talking about? If so, it looks like the smallest unit is simply a 12V battery... They do offer smaller ones, though, such as 40Ah. I'd think that might be more appropriate, but again, it just depends on what you're after...
 

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Earlier when I posted I had looked up Valence batteries and from what was listed assumed you were talking about the "U27-12XP 12.8 V 138 Ah 19.5 kg," at this webpage: https://www.valence.com/products/standard-modules/xp-module/

Is that what you're talking about? If so, it looks like the smallest unit is simply a 12V battery... They do offer smaller ones, though, such as 40Ah. I'd think that might be more appropriate, but again, it just depends on what you're after...
Have a look on you tube you can take them to pieces, as a battery they have a slave battery monitoring system which can be linked to other batteries. Anyway the batteries can be broken down and made into a different configuration, so that is what I am considering, If I get time I will pop up and see Peter
 

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Kokam cells are supposed to be absolutely top shelf...

So top shelf that I'm a little suspicious of that price.

But: you'll run into the same tab attachment problems that stymied a lot of the 20Ah pack cell installs. I don't know if anyone came up with a good off-the-shelf solution for this.

Otherwise I'd pick up a lot of these tomorrow for an ebike battery.

Note you would want 60 cells for a 144v nominal pack.
 

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Tab attachment is not a problem if both tabs are copper....
You can just solder them together.

If one is aluminium then it's very tricky
 

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Has anyone considered replacing the Insight's MCM with an aftermarket or DIY controller? I believe there are abundant options for an EV that could be used. This would also simplify battery choices, and allow for more customized assist/regen behavior.
 

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Has anyone considered replacing the Insight's MCM with an aftermarket or DIY controller? I believe there are abundant options for an EV that could be used. This would also simplify battery choices, and allow for more customized assist/regen behavior.
yes .. I think many of us have at one time or another .. and as you wrote , there are some choices that should work out there.

Long ago .. Just before MIMA had come out I had considered using the smaller high efficiency WaveSculptor controller that some of the solar race cars use .. to do just that .. but .. reduce, then reuse, then recycle .. when MIMA came out (now Peter's IMA-C&C) , that let me do mostly like ~90% of the same functions but 're-using' instead of replacing .. Now, unless/until I also replace/upgrade the IMA motor itself, I don't have all that much benefit from such.

I don't know if such would cause lots of error codes though .. one doing such might also need Peter's 'gas-only' modification device to prevent the car from throwing codes when it doesn't see the MDM or such.

but .. as the saying goes .. that's not allot of sugar for a dime.
;)
 

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I was considering that it would be used in conjunction with the "gas only" mod. Considering the money that might be saved and the increased flexibility in the battery department, it just might be worth it.
 

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I was considering that it would be used in conjunction with the "gas only" mod. Considering the money that might be saved and the increased flexibility in the battery department, it just might be worth it.
What specific 'battery flexibility' feature/aspect are you looking for / desiring, that the other route won't provide?
 

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Currently, I think one major hurdle is figuring out how to make a different BMS play nice with the Insight's computers. Is this not the case?
No not really, all that work was done years ago and published on here.. It's easy to fool the computer into thinking you have a nice balanced pack of the right voltage. It's also easy to fake the soc and command the system to curb regen or assist if battery is too low or too high.

Some don't bother with a BMS, but if you do it can be fairly simple and easy to integrate into the oem system.

Anyway let's not derail this thread. I suggest lots of reading to do on the BCM fooler & BCM interceptor and the many various working lithium conversions on here. ;)
 

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Yeah, as Peter says, we've all figured out how to do it... it's just that nobody has finished a sellable product yet to completely replace the BCM/MCM... I got real close a couple years back (boy how the time has flown), but I've remained perpetually busy since then. I will still release the product (Linsight), but it won't be anytime soon; it's not even on my mid-range forecast right now.
 

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Well this is a cool battery with a well-thought-out assembly tray:
youtube.com/watch?v=wvufHYkGWBo

Specs rated for 100 A charge and 100 A discharge.
It's an LiFePO4 pack, so lower cell voltage, but 48S still gets us 120 Vmin, 175 Vmax, 150 Vnom.

Without any volume discounts, an 8 Ah 48S pack (1200 Wh) would cost ~$850. That's got the low end market pretty well covered ;).
 

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So hey, I've been making a little bit of headway on making a battery pack for an Insight.
https://www.insightcentral.net/forums/honda-insight-forum-1st-gen-discussion/120675-lithiated-insight.html

To briefly summarize, I work for a company that makes both LiFePO4 cells and NMC cells. I think the LiFePO4 cells would be a much better fit for our cars, and the voltage works out more cleanly. So once the sales dude and engineers and such come back from vacation, I'll have a chat with them and see what we can come up with for a true aftermarket battery pack for the Insight. A system like your Linsight module or Peter's BCM fooler might be required (the pack would have its own BMS to properly balance and monitor the cells, and would just spit out CAN data with info).
But the first step is to find out what it would cost, if they're willing to do it.
 

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Update? Boy I wish there was one. People here at work don't know what they're dong, so for the past long while we've been scrambling to meet poorly/unplanned deadlines. I haven't had time for schoolwork, let alone a project as expansive as a battery pack.
However...
There has been some discussion here and there with people, and it's definitely doable. Sellable is another story.
Sorry for the delay, I'll try to keep everyone posted..
 

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sounds good. I have some venture-capital-type backing, and would be open to discussions with the owner. PM me if/when you guys get some more details ironed out.
 
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