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Discussion Starter · #961 ·
@klinkelis,
@ericbecky is correct: I've shifted to a different (better?) implementation. When I started the Linsight project in 2016, we still hadn't found a drop-in battery. This was a major hindrance, as there's no point in having a drop-in PCB if the battery is still kludged & cobbled together.

Then I got REALLY busy for about five years. Starting 2021JAN I found myself with "free time" again for the first time in a while. At that point I began to contemplate which perpetually deferred project on my "to do at some point" list I'd take on.

When @mmdepace found these truly drop-in lithium modules, it rekindled my interest in finishing the Linsight project. Then, when I found that these batteries fit in the OEM enclosure without modification, that totally changed the scope of the Linsight project: instead of a single-board solution that combined the BCM+MCM (i.e. 'Linsight'), the project is now two separate PCBs (LiBCM replaces the BCM & LiMCM replaces the MCM). The link @ericbecky provided is for the replacement LiBCM PCB.

After I begin shipping the LiBCM PCB, my next insight-related project will be the replacement LiMCM PCB. Together these two PCBs (LiBCM + LiMCM) will become the actualized 'Linsight' project. Note that while I'm full speed ahead on LiBCM, I have not decided whether I'll immediately follow-up with the LiMCM PCB... so while 'Linsight' is still a while away from shipping, LiBCM should start shipping around 2021JUL. That will allow customers to safely use this specific lithium module in G1 Insights, albeit with the restrictions imposed by the OEM MCM in place (until I follow-up with LiMCM).

Long story short, 'Linsight' as proposed in this thread is never going to happen. However, a derivative 'Linsight = LiBCM + LiMCM' project is at least partially underway at the moment.
 

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I think it is significant that this conversion uses a lithium pack, the Gen3 Insight, currently available from salvage yards:)
 

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Discussion Starter · #963 · (Edited)
I've decided to repurpose the (unreleased) 'Linsight' name, which was previously a BCM+MCM replacement PCB (as documented in this super long thread). Linsight is now a brand name (e.g. 'Honda', 'Glock', etc), and will eventually consist of several sub-components. My forward-looking product pipeline is as follows:

-'Linsight BCM' (or 'LiBCM'):
Replaces the OEM BCM to allow lithium batteries within the OEM IMA battery module. I'm actively working on this product as we speak. Right now I'm estimating that the first prototype units will ship mid-June. If all goes well, that would lead to production units mid July(ish). When this product is ready, there will be a post titled "Introducing the Linsight LiBCM Replacement".

-'Linsight Display':
The next product in the pipeline is a touch screen add-on to LiBCM that displays pretty much anything you want to know about the IMA system, down to the cell voltage, temperatures, fan speed, state of charge, current, etc. This product shouldn't take more than a few weeks to implement, as I'm using a great WYSIWYG editor and existing hardware (Nextion), which communicates with LiBCM via serial. Note that this will be a complementary product to OBDIIC&C... I have zero intention to directly compete with Peter's excellent system, as it would be a waste of time. OBDIIC&C is awesome. In fact, I (eventually) intend to make OBDIIC&C able to talk directly with LiBCM & LiMCM (both via a firmware update).

-Linsight Control:
After that, I'll start my take on a manual assist/regen controller, which will behave much the same way as the various other systems on the market. However, it will have much better integration with Linsight products, via a serial connection to METSCI. I have a "lean control" feature planned that - when activated - will provide assist as needed to stay in lean burn. I plan to allow user-configurable behavior, using the Linsight Display interface.

-'Linsight MCM (or 'LiMCM'):
Finally, I'll finish what I started back in 2016: replacing the OEM MCM. When this is released, 'Linsight' - as previously outlined in this thread - will finally exist, by combining LiMCM + LiBCM. I've already done most of the hardware work for LiMCM (again, as described in this thread). I still have many hardware bugs to fix, and then of course the firmware is going to be a complete restart.

...

So that's the product pipeline. I have no timeline or release dates. However, I have much more time now than I did from 2016-2020. These projects are super exciting to me, and over the past month I've transitioned to working on insight-related designs about half the time. That could change in an instant, but I don't anticipate anything like the burdens I took on over the past five years.

I've spent the past five years saying 'NO' to almost every project that crosses my desk. However, I haven't said 'NO' to everything, and have still taken on a few major projects, two of which are releasing real soon... I've been done with them for months (hence why I started LiBCM), so now I'm just waiting on the software/marketing/sales teams to finish their downstream work prior to the release.

Also I'm no longer building a house... that was a lot of work.

All this is to say: my calendar is fairly open right now, and I'm slowly filling it with insight-related tinkering.
 

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Mystery Ford cells.

I found some Ford lithium cells on battery hookup. Unfortunately there is very little information on the specs.


Based on the size of these, two of them would fit in the battery Bay. At 60s it also fits the max cells of the LiBCM general release modules.

One thing is for certain:
isoSPI will NOT have an expansion header on the general release LiBCM modules... you'll be limited to 60S.
Has anyone else looked into these. I'm trying to find more information but batteryhookup doesn't even list the model they came from.
 

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Cells out of a C-Max?
That's what I originally thought they were. The c max cells are listed at 1 lb 8 oz each. That would be 45 lb for 30 of them. The 30s module I posted is only 16 lb. Seeing as how the capacity is about the same they must be a different chemistry.
 

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One issue that these will present is that with a "nominal voltage of 111V per pack", with two packs you will exceed the maximum voltage of the DC:DC converter which, from what others have found, will cause it to shut down.
 

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That's what I originally thought they were. The c max cells are listed at 1 lb 8 oz each. That would be 45 lb for 30 of them. The 30s module I posted is only 16 lb. Seeing as how the capacity is about the same they must be a different chemistry.
When I briefly skimmed that post I linked to, and a few around it, I thought I saw that the C-Max came with either smaller ~5.5Ah cells and larger ones, like for the plug-in 'C-Max Energi?' maybe. I also recall some conversation akin to that. There's no way a chemistry difference would make that much difference in weight! So maybe the 1 lb 8 oz figure you have is for the larger cells, and there's some other weight/specs for the smaller ones... Besides, 1 lb 8oz for a ~5.5Ah cell would be...really porky.
 

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Mystery Ford cells solved!
Hopefully!


I called battery hookup and asked if they knew the model these modules came from, and the maximum charge and discharge rates. they said they didn't know the model but they were rated for a 10c discharge and a 1C charge. that means it would take a good number of these modules to get any kind of region out of them...

I had to do a bit more digging but it looks like these modules are from a 2020 Ford escape hybrid. I found this article on motor trend.


It says the Escape uses a 1.1 KW lithium battery. These modules are 550 Watts a piece so that fits. It also shows a picture using two of the same looking modules in the battery pack.

I'm assuming battery hookup either doesn't know the actual specs or Ford told them to keep it a secret (it kind of makes sense that they would do that since it is their latest technology) At 1C that is only 1.1 KW of Regen. I also found this video on YouTube.


They are testing the zero to 60 time on an Escape hybrid. There is a gauge on the dash that shows the kilowatts of the electric assist. I don't know how accurate it is but it is reading 28 KW at max power. I don't know how C-rate compares between Ah and Kwh. Assuming it's close to the same, a 1.1 KW battery
pushing 28 KW would be about 25C.

One issue that these will present is that with a "nominal voltage of 111V per pack", with two packs you will exceed the maximum voltage of the DC:DC converter
I actually already knew the DC converter shuts down at 220v. I guess in my excitement it didn't come to mind, thanks for reminding me though. One of the packs could be split between any cells giving any number of between 31 and 59. I would have to find another way of compressing the cells. Or better yet, I could leave the module together, cut the bus bars, and use the extra cells to create a 12 volt auxiliary pack.

There's one thing that maybe a potential drawback or benefit. apparently these cells in the Escape are liquid cooled. I don't know if that cooling is accomplished through the sub packs or the full pack. If the plumbing just goes through the sub packs it may be easy to add liquid cooling to these. if it goes to the full pack (which battery hookup doesn't have) that may take a bit of work. If these cells need cooling to reach their full potential this could pose a problem.

I figured the only way to find out is to order and test. I ordered two sub packs today, 290$ with shipping. I'm either going to have one of the cheapest lithium conversions, or join the ranks of Insighters that have lost money on experimenting.

Thanks for the assist @eq1!
 

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I figured the only way to find out is to order and test. I ordered two sub packs today, 290$ with shipping. I'm either going to have one of the cheapest lithium conversions, or join the ranks of Insighters that have lost money on experimenting.
I have had half a dozen different types of lithium kicking around my workshop.
You can't have too many types of battery to play with. ;)
 

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Linsight Designer
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Discussion Starter · #971 ·
I have had half a dozen different types of lithium kicking around my workshop.
You can't have too many types of battery to play with. ;)
Same. I'm at a point where if there was a house fire, I'm not sure the firefighters would chance going inside the house. I use the Nissan Leaf modules I purchased back in 2016 as a standby power backup... we ran the house for a couple days on it earlier this year, just to see how much capacity was left... only 67%, so yeah those early Nissan Leaf cells aren't great.
 

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Would a full Linsight once it is completely finished allow you to remove the factory ECU and still have assist and regen? I’d like to some day build a really powerful 1L insight and to push 10 or more psi requires a fully programmable ECU
 

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Discussion Starter · #973 ·
You can already do that with the OEM MCM/BCM. The OEM control signals leading to the IMA bay are very well understood.
 

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Discussion Starter · #975 ·
So c&c doesn’t need the permission of the ECU to command the ima?
I don't know how Peter has implemented his c&c device, but I suspect it has a "manual control mode", which I suspect completely ignores ECM-related IMA requests.

The signals c&c ultimately man-in-the-middles are all basic logic/pwm controls (i.e. no serial data or anything like that). CMDPWR, MAMODE1/2.
 

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Mystery Ford cells came in today!

They are dated November 2nd of 2016. That means I was probably wrong about them being for a 2020 Ford Escape.

They don't seem too bad for New Old stock. Both modules tested at 108.8v (rated at 111v) all cells tested between 3.633v and 3.638v.

These cells are definitely compressed. I took one module apart and was unable to get it back together. I even tried wrapping a ratchet strap around it.

They are definitely not easy to reconfigure like the G3 cells. They are tab welded but there is plenty of extra metal to work with. They could easily be cut and drilled to accept ring terminals.

Rectangle Wood Shelving Wall Font


Does anyone have any suggestion on how to load test these cells?
 

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Choose a cell and measure the voltage.

Charge the selected cell to 4.1V and measure temperature.

Then use a proper electronic load with battery test facility for accurate numbers.
Set minimum discharge voltage so it cuts off before destroying the cell. Say 3V..

Discharge at say 1C about 5A for a baseline capacity.

Charge and repeat at say 10C 50A for a second test.

Then recharge to the same voltage it was before the testing.

Measure temperature before/after each test..
 
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