For background information, start here:
http://www.insightcentral.net/forum...lternator-motec-management-33.html#post646729
and here:
http://www.insightcentral.net/forum...ront-rear-springs-new-rear-anti-roll-bar.html
One typo in Julian's dedicated spring post is that the rears are +55% rate and the fronts are +45% rate (he wrote it the other way around, but if you work out the rates from the first thread, that is what they work out to). But basically +50% each.
Went junkyard hunting today, looking for a nice front spring replacement to go with the Matiz rear springs I got from Scott.
Looking for a 1" front lift and slightly higher rate (I personally am not looking for +50% rate per-se, as the rear springs are).
I am also looking for a rear bar of sorts. I have previously played with swapping rates and bars on a couple Saturn S cars (incl a nifty 4 way adjustable bar, which was handy when the seasons changed to ice and snow) and some older Subaru GLs, which had tons of different spring and swaybar options for the coupe/sedan/wagon that all shared suspension parts but all had different rates and thicknesses.
I took an attempt at some very ghetto spring rate measurement, but looking at the data in excel tonight, I can say it is complete garbage. I'll come up with something better.
FRONT SPRINGS
Stock springs:
Insight Front
Wire diameter: 10.5 mm
Free length: 282.5 mm
Spring rate: 112 lb/in (per Julian's measurements)
Spring options:
1. 2002-2008 Corolla CE/LE/S (the crappy ones) rear spring
Wire diameter: 11 mm
Free length: 335 mm
Spring rate: 162 lb/in (according to Julian)
Very close to measurements:
MOOG® 80667 - Toyota Corolla 2005-2006 Rear Coil Spring Set
These guys just fit over the Honda strut (on the lower end) and need to be trimmed and flattened on the top to fit against the strut top (as per Julian's instructions). They are slightly smaller in diameter than the unusually small (for a front spring) Honda OE springs, and may rub the plastic bellow just a tad. They actually do not "seat" all the way down on the strut with the plastic bellow in place, but that could be resolved with a little trimming. An interesting thing to note is that when cutting 1.5 coils off, the spring rate is going to increase over what it is already, as the total length of the wire is going to be shortened (you can think of a coil spring as a straight wire "spring" that has been wrapped up for packaging reasons).
2. Toyota Echo rear springs
Wire diameter: 11.8 mm
Free length: 322.5 mm
Spring rate: 117 lb/in (according to some people on Yaris forums)
These guys are basically the same diameter as the factory springs, but have tight coils on either end that would need to be trimmed down. One coil would also need to be flattened as with the Corolla spring. In the process of shortening this spring to the right length, I think it would gain maybe 10% in rate (as you'd be taking 10% of the coil length off). This would make for a 130 lb/in spring which would be a nice amount over stock, perhaps without being too much for the OE dampers.
Other promising looking options I was not able to grab (ran out of time):
Toyota Yaris rear springs. These measure a tad thicker than the Echo springs, at 12.3 mm diameter. Other dimensions looked similar.
Toyota Matrix rear springs. Identical to the Camry ones, but 11.9 mm wire instead of 11. Even higher rate basically. The free length may be longer as well, but probably close.
2001 Civic (and other Civics of this generation). These measured at 12.2 mm diameter wire and other dimensions looked like they would allow for a straight swap onto the Insight front strut. The overall diameter of the coils was smaller (about 4.5" vs a hair over 5" stock) but the spring seat areas looked dimensionally very close. Top of these springs looked to be pre-flattened. Don't know their actual rates and free lengths are tho, which are key.
Mazda 3 rear springs. These also look like a dimensionally close fit, but perhaps too small. Wire diameter is 11.15 mm.
REAR ANTI ROLL BARS
The following dimensions should be adhered to when making a rear anti-roll bar for the G1 Insight:
55 mm rod end "dogbone" height (this is the height inside the rear torsion beam)
800 mm total length (center to center of the mounting holes)
Toyota anti roll bars use 13 mm shank diameter bolts (and something like 16 mm diameter tubes on the dogbone portion). Would be a reasonable setup if someone had an Insight bar fabbed. The Toyota bolts should be readily available.
The Insight beam has some braces near the ends that limit rod length to 800 mm. These braces are tapered pieces of steel welded into the beam. They start 350 mm from the center of the bar in each direction (so they are 700 mm apart where they start). They taper rearward inside the bar, so if your anti-roll bar is too wide, you will not be able to tuck the ends "inside" of the "C" portion of the torsion beam, as it turns into an "E" at about 900 mm (as these braces taper thicker and eventually tie the torsion bar to the hub). See pictures below.
I snagged two bars from the yard today. They spec out as follows:
1. 2002-2008 Corolla CE/LE/S (the crappy ones) rear sway bar (and Matrix, same sway bar)
20 mm diameter
50 mm tall rod end "dogbones"
1020 mm total length (center to center)
2. 1st Gen Prius rear sway bar (yes, it had one, and the Echo didn't for some reason)
17.5 mm diameter
50 mm tall rod end "dogbones"
900 mm total length (center to center)
Either of these bars, with a little cut and weld, will work fine. They will need a thick washer on either "dogbone" end when slid into the beam, but no big deal. I am planning on having both modified to fit so I can try them both out and decide what degree of lateral coupling I like better (how much load transfer I like).
There are a couple bits of information I don't have that would be terrific when making my spring cutting calculations and measurements. First, what is the length of a stock Insight front spring when the car is sitting on level pavement. I didn't bother to take this today, but if it's dry out tomorrow, I'll probably get it then. Second, what is the weight distribution of the car. How much weight is on the front wheels? If I have this information handy, I can calculate how long to cut the springs in order to give me the correct installed ride height (I can back out how much the stock springs are compressing, or back out how much load they are carrying if I know either the load or the length).
Pics below are:
1. Today's Haul
2. Insight strut taken apart (showing the bumper the car basically rides on)
3. 1G Prius anti roll bar diameter
4. 2002-2008 Camry/Matrix/Vibe anti roll bar diameter
5. Inside one "end" of the 1G Insight rear torsion beam (showing internal flange that limits length of rear anti roll bar)
http://www.insightcentral.net/forum...lternator-motec-management-33.html#post646729
and here:
http://www.insightcentral.net/forum...ront-rear-springs-new-rear-anti-roll-bar.html
One typo in Julian's dedicated spring post is that the rears are +55% rate and the fronts are +45% rate (he wrote it the other way around, but if you work out the rates from the first thread, that is what they work out to). But basically +50% each.
Went junkyard hunting today, looking for a nice front spring replacement to go with the Matiz rear springs I got from Scott.
Looking for a 1" front lift and slightly higher rate (I personally am not looking for +50% rate per-se, as the rear springs are).
I am also looking for a rear bar of sorts. I have previously played with swapping rates and bars on a couple Saturn S cars (incl a nifty 4 way adjustable bar, which was handy when the seasons changed to ice and snow) and some older Subaru GLs, which had tons of different spring and swaybar options for the coupe/sedan/wagon that all shared suspension parts but all had different rates and thicknesses.
I took an attempt at some very ghetto spring rate measurement, but looking at the data in excel tonight, I can say it is complete garbage. I'll come up with something better.
FRONT SPRINGS
Stock springs:
Insight Front
Wire diameter: 10.5 mm
Free length: 282.5 mm
Spring rate: 112 lb/in (per Julian's measurements)
Spring options:
1. 2002-2008 Corolla CE/LE/S (the crappy ones) rear spring
Wire diameter: 11 mm
Free length: 335 mm
Spring rate: 162 lb/in (according to Julian)
Very close to measurements:
MOOG® 80667 - Toyota Corolla 2005-2006 Rear Coil Spring Set
These guys just fit over the Honda strut (on the lower end) and need to be trimmed and flattened on the top to fit against the strut top (as per Julian's instructions). They are slightly smaller in diameter than the unusually small (for a front spring) Honda OE springs, and may rub the plastic bellow just a tad. They actually do not "seat" all the way down on the strut with the plastic bellow in place, but that could be resolved with a little trimming. An interesting thing to note is that when cutting 1.5 coils off, the spring rate is going to increase over what it is already, as the total length of the wire is going to be shortened (you can think of a coil spring as a straight wire "spring" that has been wrapped up for packaging reasons).
2. Toyota Echo rear springs
Wire diameter: 11.8 mm
Free length: 322.5 mm
Spring rate: 117 lb/in (according to some people on Yaris forums)
These guys are basically the same diameter as the factory springs, but have tight coils on either end that would need to be trimmed down. One coil would also need to be flattened as with the Corolla spring. In the process of shortening this spring to the right length, I think it would gain maybe 10% in rate (as you'd be taking 10% of the coil length off). This would make for a 130 lb/in spring which would be a nice amount over stock, perhaps without being too much for the OE dampers.
Other promising looking options I was not able to grab (ran out of time):
Toyota Yaris rear springs. These measure a tad thicker than the Echo springs, at 12.3 mm diameter. Other dimensions looked similar.
Toyota Matrix rear springs. Identical to the Camry ones, but 11.9 mm wire instead of 11. Even higher rate basically. The free length may be longer as well, but probably close.
2001 Civic (and other Civics of this generation). These measured at 12.2 mm diameter wire and other dimensions looked like they would allow for a straight swap onto the Insight front strut. The overall diameter of the coils was smaller (about 4.5" vs a hair over 5" stock) but the spring seat areas looked dimensionally very close. Top of these springs looked to be pre-flattened. Don't know their actual rates and free lengths are tho, which are key.
Mazda 3 rear springs. These also look like a dimensionally close fit, but perhaps too small. Wire diameter is 11.15 mm.
REAR ANTI ROLL BARS
The following dimensions should be adhered to when making a rear anti-roll bar for the G1 Insight:
55 mm rod end "dogbone" height (this is the height inside the rear torsion beam)
800 mm total length (center to center of the mounting holes)
Toyota anti roll bars use 13 mm shank diameter bolts (and something like 16 mm diameter tubes on the dogbone portion). Would be a reasonable setup if someone had an Insight bar fabbed. The Toyota bolts should be readily available.
The Insight beam has some braces near the ends that limit rod length to 800 mm. These braces are tapered pieces of steel welded into the beam. They start 350 mm from the center of the bar in each direction (so they are 700 mm apart where they start). They taper rearward inside the bar, so if your anti-roll bar is too wide, you will not be able to tuck the ends "inside" of the "C" portion of the torsion beam, as it turns into an "E" at about 900 mm (as these braces taper thicker and eventually tie the torsion bar to the hub). See pictures below.
I snagged two bars from the yard today. They spec out as follows:
1. 2002-2008 Corolla CE/LE/S (the crappy ones) rear sway bar (and Matrix, same sway bar)
20 mm diameter
50 mm tall rod end "dogbones"
1020 mm total length (center to center)
2. 1st Gen Prius rear sway bar (yes, it had one, and the Echo didn't for some reason)
17.5 mm diameter
50 mm tall rod end "dogbones"
900 mm total length (center to center)
Either of these bars, with a little cut and weld, will work fine. They will need a thick washer on either "dogbone" end when slid into the beam, but no big deal. I am planning on having both modified to fit so I can try them both out and decide what degree of lateral coupling I like better (how much load transfer I like).
There are a couple bits of information I don't have that would be terrific when making my spring cutting calculations and measurements. First, what is the length of a stock Insight front spring when the car is sitting on level pavement. I didn't bother to take this today, but if it's dry out tomorrow, I'll probably get it then. Second, what is the weight distribution of the car. How much weight is on the front wheels? If I have this information handy, I can calculate how long to cut the springs in order to give me the correct installed ride height (I can back out how much the stock springs are compressing, or back out how much load they are carrying if I know either the load or the length).
Pics below are:
1. Today's Haul
2. Insight strut taken apart (showing the bumper the car basically rides on)
3. 1G Prius anti roll bar diameter
4. 2002-2008 Camry/Matrix/Vibe anti roll bar diameter
5. Inside one "end" of the 1G Insight rear torsion beam (showing internal flange that limits length of rear anti roll bar)
Attachments
-
128.2 KB Views: 237
-
115.9 KB Views: 219
-
110.5 KB Views: 212
-
107.6 KB Views: 199
-
128.8 KB Views: 214