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Linsight Designer
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I just bought QTY1 for $440 shipped... that's one heck of a deal. Ha, I now have batteries from six different lithium vehicles ;). This is a standard (i.e. non-LTO) lithium cell. Rest assured I will give a full technical review once they come in. Using QTY2 18-cell packs and QTY1 12-cell pack yields 201.6 full charge voltage, which is an excellent drop-in replacement for the OEM system... note you'll almost certainly want a BMS, unless you like living dangerously.
 

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Linsight Designer
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These are legit. Unboxing video and initial thoughts:
youtu.be/d4gk2evbaQA

First off, there is NO onboard Battery Management System. There are voltage sense leads on an off-the-shelf connector.

The sub-pack sizes are: 235.3 Wh (QTY2) & 352.98 Wh (QTY2). Total pack size is 1176.56 Wh (nom).

These are standard lithium cells. Specifically, they are Panasonic __. Using these cells without a battery management system is a HUGE fire hazard. You have been warned if you choose to forgo a BMS.

Honda part number 1D190-6L2-A000, named "Honda SEC battery module set". However, Honda does not recognize this part number, and I've found zero references to it online. Elsewhere I've found similar text "Code: 1D190-6L2A", which also yields zero results in my search.

A note on the box says these batteries "expired" on 2019/07/04... I'm sure that's meaningless. The last "checked" date is 2019/01/16. So these are basically batteries that sat in Honda's stock and were never needed, then expired, and are now being sold as scrap.

Update: Here's the teardown:
youtu.be/aXQ28Z8D6L4

Takeaways:
-Each battery module can EASILY be disassembled down to individual cells. These packs are super user friendly, and can be reconfigured in an combination to achieve any voltage. All you need is a 7 & 8 mm socket.

Edit2 (ampacity):
These cells are in perfect condition. Measured 4.5 Ah charging to 4.1 volts at 25 A, and then immediately discharging to 2.75 volts at 30 A:
youtu.be/JepoijK6Cyo

Edit3 (mechanicals):
Using both larger (18S) modules and one small (12S) module yields an 864 Wh, 48S, 5 Ah lithium pack, which is slightly more capacity than the G1's OEM NiMH pack, but is much lighter (36.7 pounds total weight).
youtu.be/oFtVi_eOLv0

This is absolutely the cheapest lithium solution I've ever seen for G1 Honda Insights. Considering you can sell the remaining, unused 12S module (e.g. on eBay), you can have a replacement lithium battery for your G1 insight for maybe $350. Of course you need a BMS, but that'll come in due time. I'm certain someone in the community will make this available shortly.
 

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Linsight Designer
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Do they need compression?
Honda (Panasonic?) certainly made an attempt to compress these cells, but it's not a legitimate attempt because the plastic spacers in between each cell are quite malleable. In short, I'm not sure, but if compression is required, then certainly not much is required. Fortunately, each module is already compressed as shipped. If these cells are removed from the OEM mechanical enclosure, then I'd recommend at lease some compression. In general prismatic lithium cells should be compressed.

The outer mechanical components (which compress the cells) weigh 2.4 pounds on the smaller pack.

With the outer mechanicals, the 12S pack weighs 9.8 pounds.
Without the outer mechanicals, the 12S pack weighs 7.4 pounds.

Update:
After forcing this pack back together, yes, these cells are under compression as designed and should probably remain compressed in use. Note that this is how they come, so no additional work is required (unless you want to make your own for funsies). Here's a video with my findings, which show that the cells have already expanded slightly after not being under compression for a couple hours:
youtu.be/oCbw8HsPylw

Note that the plastic spacers between each cell are only contacting half of each cell's sidewall... so the force isn't applied evenly. This allows air to flow between each cell. I trust that Panasonic crunched the numbers and determined the compression is sufficient, even though it's not uniformly applied.
 

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Linsight Designer
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FYI: To answer questions proposed earlier in this thread, the linked LTC6804 project has a readily-available PCB:
However, it would be a bit clunky in the G1, as it only works with 12S cells as designed... you'd need QTY4 Arduinos, but it would work in a pinch. Note this limitation is of the PCB design, not the LTC6804 (which technically supports thousands of cells in series, via its isoSPI protocol. I recommend the community look elsewhere for an existing BMS design that can handle 48S natively.
 

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Linsight Designer
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Final post for this pack for today:
youtu.be/B1uSyRkeZzs

Key takeaways:
-the resistor in each wire harness is 12k on all four packs. This is almost certainly an "I'm here" resistor. It is NOT a temperature sensor.
-It appears these packs have zero temperature sensors. For G1 retrofit a sensor can be added, but I find it odd that Honda doesn't include one in the G3 Insight.
-Every QTY4 packs yields batteries for QTY5 G1 insights.
 

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Linsight Designer
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What are the exact dimensions of a bare cell please including the height to the top of the terminal studs.

I am wondering if they are short enough to fit inside a gutted G1 battery case.

Thanks
I'll measure these dimensions in a couple hours.

Update:
Here's a drawing. I make no guarantees that this is accurate. However, I believe all important features are modeled.
 

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Linsight Designer
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Looks like I might be coring out an OEM IMA core. I keep telling Lauren there's a reason I keep all these old Insight parts ;). Any coring tips?

.............................

In regards to cooling, I doubt they need any in most climates... I charged and discharged a single cell all day and it never got more than 10 degF above room temperature... that's equivalent to continuously charging (or discharging) a 48S pack at 5200 watts... for over 12 hours without pause.

I guess certain climates (Arizona?) might benefit from a cooling fan, but the fact is these cells have an ESR well below 1 mOhm, so they just don't generate much heat. For reference, the OEM NiMH pack's ESR can exceed 500 mOhm.

The fact that Honda doesn't monitor battery temperature (directly at the cell, at least) suggests that they're only turning on the fans (in the G3 Insight) when ambient temperatures are high (e.g. outside temp, and/or exhaust air temp, etc). Since the G1 Insight can pull considerably less current than the G3's IMA system, I'd venture a guess that these cells will never self-heat when used in any G1 setup. The only cooling benefit is if the car itself is stored in an area with intense heat (e.g. Arizona).
 

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Linsight Designer
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I'm probably going to remove my cells from the modules based on your temperature/charging tests.
I'll repack them like proverbial sardines in a gutted OEM case as that saves a bit of weight and space!
Keep in mind you'll need new bus bars if you remove the tab spacers... the battery terminal studs will get closer.

In regards to shipping these, it's possible the shipping is less if you open up the large outer box and then ship the two smaller inner boxes. The internal boxes are also correctly labeled for shipping lithium batteries.
 

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Linsight Designer
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Fantastic news gang: These modules fit in the OEM G1 IMA battery enclosure WITHOUT MODIFICATION:
youtu.be/-Yw_aFtO9JE

What does this mean? 48S (200 volts) with room to spare... you could even fit 54S (232 volts) )in the OEM bay (if you have QTY3 18S modules). This is the DREAM SOLUTION for a low effort aftermarket lithium in the G1 insight.

I just bought a few more sets. Ha, I tried to buy the rest, but owner wasn't interested ;). OK, fine, we'll just buy them all as a community.
 

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Linsight Designer
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I agree... If only someone on this forum would hurry up and design one ;).
I'm trying to figure out the connector as we speak. Digikey to the rescue.
If I can find the connector, I'll design a BMS PCB specifically for the insight... it will be VERY SIMPLE, and will take place of the OEM BCM... certainly not Linsight, but it's what I have time for right now. Total BOM cost would be under $100... I'll charge more to nominally cover my time, based on minimum wage ;).
 

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Linsight Designer
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Alright, I cannot find this connector. I've poured through Digikey's catalog and I'm starting to think this is a Honda-specific connector. There are no identifying markings on the connector whatsoever. If anyone wants to join the search, we'll start with the 12S connector:
Rows: 2
Positions: 20
Row pitch: 3 mm
Column pitch: 2.2 mm

If we can't find the connector, then I'll make my own using two unshielded 1x10 2.2 mm pitch pin headers. This will be slightly less user friendly, but it is a simple solution.

This PCB is going to have a gargantuan legal disclaimer.
 

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Linsight Designer
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I have bought four sets but they will work out at about $1500 each by the time I get them to the UK and duty is paid.
That's still a good deal... half the price of an OEM Honda NiMH refurb, and also cheaper than a 3rd party NiMH cell swap. Were you able to work with someone here to potentially ship them via a cheaper method? As I mentioned previously, you can break the large box down and ship the two smaller boxes (which are properly labelled for individual shipping).

Peter, are you interested in collaborating on the BMS replacement PCB I mentioned previously? Basically I'd be looking for your knowledge on the BCM fooler data stream... I've researched it some, but I discarded that subsystem once I knew for certain Linsight didn't need it at all. If I develop the BMS PCB - with an onboard microcontroller that can send data onto BATTSCI - can you help me with the serial data stream you're using with BCM fooler? I don't want to have to reinvent the wheel.
 

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Linsight Designer
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I'll have to look and see how much complexity 54S adds. There are many concerns that would require additional thought:

-Usability. The 12S and 18S pinouts are different, which would require two separate connectors per "bay" (in the OEM enclosure).

-Safety. The non-used male header (either 12S or 18S) would be energized once the used header was connected to the battery. Customers touching this header could kill themselves.

-Cost. Each LTC6804 circuit costs about $25 in parts... the IC itself is $21.40 EACH. Obviously we can depopulate the PCB, but that adds multiple build options. Adding this all up, a PCB that supports 48S is going to be ~$125 in parts, plus the cost of the PCB (~$20 in low volume).

-End use. I believe the primary benefit is for customers to have a simple lithium solution. Most of those customers probably aren't going to want to swap out their OEM DCDC converter. For those of us tinkerers that want to push the voltage, I'll probably end up recommending people manually wire a 5th LTC6804 (e.g. using LT's demo PCB, which would require manual wiring).

-PCB real estate. This PCB is quite restrained by the OEM pack's small top space (with the OEM computers installed). Particularly the folded steel piece that surrounds those computers is all kinds of in the way. Therefore, I probably won't have enough room for a 5th isolated BMS circuit.

I think I'll go into this project with these configurations in mind:
QTY-12S QTY-18S Result Vnom Vmax
3 0 36S 133 150
1 2 48S 178 200
0 2 36S 133 150
After I've roughed it out, if I can make more configurations work for free (or little effort) I'll look into that. I agree 54S would be great, but I don't believe it will make the initial roadmap.
 

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Linsight Designer
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Your cpu will also probably have to receive data from the MCM on the METSCI line.
That's actually more effort than it sounds... I plan on using the 328p, which only has two hardware serial ports. I'll bit-bang a third serial port if I have to, but I'd rather not waste the CPU time, since I plan to use that to rapidly query SPI battery voltage and make realtime decisions. 25 MHz only goes so far ;).

As much as I'd love to port my existing code over to another microcontroller, my existing code works on the 328p... technically it also works on a much larger microcontroller, too, but that's more expensive. The code I kludged together doesn't have a simple HAL that I can easily rewrite... in short, using another microcontroller is more effort than I'm willing to commit to this project.

Is there a way we can tie my PCB into your existing BCM fooler? I can even replicate your (PIC?) circuit on my PCB, and then load your code.

People will scratch their heads, thinking "why does this PCB have both Atmel and PIC uCs?"
 

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Linsight Designer
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Peter, I'll have to dust off my Linsight IMA schematic tomorrow and see if there's a simpler method. I'll read your reply in more detail then (it's 4AM here right now).

...

I've been trying to find more information about these batteries. Here are my findings thus far:

The best rabbit hole I've explored so far is from the serial number label that was attached inside the box... it contains the text "UF121285H". That leads to this website:

Findings from that website:
From Honda immd hybrid system, which is used in both 2018-2020 Accord Hybrid & 2019+ Insight
Chemistry: LiNiCoMnO2 (ternary lithium battery)
"Panasonic used after localization, model UF121285H". I think he means that the battery was originally designed by Blue Energy (which itself is 49% owned by Honda)... and now Panasonic is making the pack instead. Remember: the box that these modules shipped in has Panasonic written all over it, as do the various labels.
"At present, the detailed specifications of this battery of Panasonic are not available online, but because Honda directly replaces it, we have reason to believe that the specifications of the two batteries (Panasonic vs Blue Energy) are compatible."
"UF 12 12 85" is based on cell dimensions (120 x12 x 85 mm).

Cell information:
Model: EHW5
Ah: 5 (when charged to 4.2 volts)
Vnom: 3.6
Operating range: -30 degC to 55 degC (131 degF)
Cycle life: 50,000 (@10-85% SoC), continuous 40A charge/discharge!
Time Life: 10 years
Recommended charge/assist current: 200 A
Maximum charge/assist current: 300 A (60C)
Power density: 4.9 kW/kg

The reason the part number on the box doesn't pull up on Honda's website is that the pack itself is a non-user-purchasable subcomponent of the following parts:
1D070-6C2-305 (2018-2020) Accord Hybrid). OEM cost: $2762
1D070-6L2-A00 (2019 Insight Hybrid). OEM cost: $3126

So yeah, this $440 battery is ~$2800 from Honda.
 

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Linsight Designer
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Peter,
-I like your idea to use the fan shroud to electrically insulate the open connection.

-I think we'd need to move/add the/a fan to the right side of the pack... that's the way the air slots flow through the lithium cells. The "unused" side you mentioned (covered by the plastic cover) is where the fans would likely need to go. However, I think we'd leave the OEM fans installed, too, as they would cool the BMS discharge resistors. We can figure that out later.

-The master/slave board idea is good, too. The interconnect would be 2-wire isoSPI.

-I agree we can't replace the BCM with the amount of effort I'm willing to focus on this project. Replacing the BCM very quickly approaches the effort of Linsight.

-I like your earlier idea of cutting the OEM tap connector off and screwing it into the BMS PCB.

-9600 baud H-line is easy... 328p has a dedicated serial hardware protocol.

-Remind me: does the OEM BCM mind if the battery voltage is 200 volts?

-I'll think about this in more detail tomorrow.
 
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