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GEN 1 Engine Battery Survey

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7K views 29 replies 15 participants last post by  brucepick 
#1 ·
I'm in need of a new engine battery due to storage.

Other than price, which class 51 engine battery has been the best for our gen 1 Indights?

Previously only bought Optima.

Best for CCA, warranty, and weight.

Thanks in advance.
 
#2 ·
Okay, any good reviews on the Exide AGM Battery?

It's Batteries Plus' best AGM 51 battery.
 
#3 ·
Some folks run a very small 12v battery. Just needs to be powerful enough to run the 12v components and the occasional 12v start. Small saves on weight. My 2 cents.
 
#5 · (Edited)
stay away from AGM batteries, they're hot garbage and shouldn't be sold for... like anything.

i bought 2 for my personal watercraft, once they go flat they go dead and there is no reviving them. you get one shot with 0 deep cycling.

if i were you, i'd just find a lawn battery that fits and has decent cca and proper posts, no need for an expensive optima, or $100 bulky monster of a battery, the engine battery doesn't do much 99.9% of the time.
 
#6 ·
I agree with Lyger. AGM batteries are not worth the extra money. I had an Optima Yellow Top for my Prius that lasted 2 years and then didn't have enough power to start a Prius which doesn't even have the option of a starter.

Sent it in for warranty and they told me that after charging the battery it tested ok. I ran through multiple discharge recharges to try and save it to no avail prior to sending it in. In the end they gave me $40 back as good faith. Which on a $200 battery isn't much.
 
#7 ·
i had an optima redtop that dropped a cell, then it proceeded to vent acid onto my fender and ate the clearcoat on my S-10 lifted 4X4, i was not happy, and have never bought an optima anything since.
 
#8 ·
I'm using an AGM SHURiKEN SK-BT20 that I bought used, about a half year before I got my Insight. Been doing it's job nearly a year now.

It's about 60% of the size and weight of the regular group 51 size.

It's rated for 850 cranking amps - which I don't believe for even a second. Rated 20 AH storage capacity.

Now - it wasn't very happy at first - my car was charging at only about 13.5 volts. A computer update by Honda brought the charge voltage to 14.1V. No trouble all winter, and it gets cold here in New England. The upgrade was a 2007 or '08 service bulletin.
 
#9 ·
I've been using only AGM batteries in our Insight since the original 27 Ah flooded-cell battery failed after ~3 years. Mazda installed an AGM battery in the trunk of its Miata because it doesn't outgas explosive hydrogen as a flooded-cell battery can, so I bought a Miata battery for our Insight. It is smaller and lighter than a Group 51 battery but has slightly greater capacity than the original battery. It worked well for about 5 years.

An Insight doesn't need as much capacity as its original battery or a Group 51 battery unless one depends on the 12V starter. When the Miata battery failed, I replaced it with a small, light 16 Ah Odyssey battery. It is 7 years old and still going strong.

BMW installs an AGM battery in its i3 EV due to its superiority over a flooded-cell battery.

I have never considered an Optima battery because they are way too big and heavy for an Insight. If they have failed early, maybe that says more about Optima quality than AGM design which has advantages over standard flooded-cell design (no outgassing of explosive, acidic vapors, extremely low self-discharge rate, no acidic liquid electrolyte, no maintenance, no concern about low electrolyte level). But an AGM battery tends to be more expensive than a flooded-cell battery, so if cost is one's main consideration, a flooded-cell battery would be the way to go.
 
#10 ·
Optima is no longer a premium brand name. They are no better than anything else. They're made by Johnson Controls just like every other cheap lead-acid battery (Wal Mart, etc.).

My last experience was in a Prius. Battery went flat. Charged for several hours on 2A 12V charger. Voltage was okay. Started Prius fine. Prius drove about 50 miles... horrible stench and loud sound coming from the back. The sound was the battery venting - a whistling sound - it blew the vent hose off... the smell was hot battery gas.

The battery was so hot, I couldn't touch it with my bare hands.

To Pepboys credit, they replaced it under warranty.
 
#11 ·
Here's a few random thoughts on Insight 12V system needs/batteries. I've been paying close attention to the 12V system for the last year or so, since I've been experimenting with a 12V battery made from Insight IMA sticks...

-In general, I've read that a lot of the 12V lead acid batteries for cars come from only a few or couple main manufacturers.

-I read that it's usually best to buy 12V lead acid from stores where turn over is high, so you don't get stuck with a battery that's been sitting on the shelf for too long.

-Some years ago I read that Wal-Mart 'Everstart Maxx' or something like that were good. Back then they had something like a 3 year free replacement, 5 year pro-rated warranty. I think it's less now. I had one in my van, that I let sit for long stretches, and it failed in a couple years...

-The stock 12V system, with IMA pack in place, everything working normally, dishes out pretty light duty on the 12V battery. It usually charges to about 13.8 to 14V, a bit higher when the engine is cold.

-The DC-DC converter goes into 'low power mode' sometimes quite often, such as during assist, when 12V system load is small (i.e. headlights and AC off, etc.), during auto-stop. At these times 12V system power comes from the 12V battery until voltage drops to about 12.1V...

-In 'low power mode' the car allows discharging down to about 12.1V, at which point the IMA pack begins to supplement the 12V system needs (i.e. energy is taken from the IMA pack to hold 12V system voltage at about 12.1V). So usually, the 12V battery operates between about 12.1 and 14V...

-We know that starting the car usually relies on the IMA motor/pack. The auxiliary starter motor draws about 1000W. It's been reported that current draw on a 12V lead acid was about 130 amps using the starter motor, that's about what I've seen as well, with voltage at about 7.8V but on a NiMH battery.

-If your IMA system is disabled/bypassed, the demands on the 12V battery are... pretty huge. 1) you rely on the 12V starter motor, which of course relies on the 12V battery, 2) the DC-DC converter doesn't put out any power at idle, so you're relying totally on the 12V battery at idle, 3) the IMA pack isn't there to supplement power when 12V system voltage drops below that 12.1V threshold any longer...

-12V system load is typically a minimum of about 140W (10 amps at 14V) while driving, and more like 224 to 280W like with climate control on and always-ON driving lights (Canadian models). With my IMA pack bypassed, I see about a 10-20 amp draw on my NiMH 12V battery at idle, when the DC-DC isn't putting out power cuz the engine speed is too slow... I'd have about 10 to 15 minutes sitting at idle with my NiMH battery before the battery drained...

-I've been using some really old, ~200,000 mile Insight sticks, 10 of the cells, for 12V battery for a few weeks now - with the IMA pack bypassed. Their total capacity is about 5.8Ah at 6 amps. Internal resistance is something like 3.5-4 mΩ per cell... They're pretty balanced, but pretty bad... yet they're handling the toughest-duty job possible, so far...
 
#12 ·
Interesting.

What are the specs and part# for the Miata battery?
 
#15 ·
What are the specs and part# for the Miata battery?
Use your favorite search engine to search for "Miata battery" and you'll find several sources selling various brands with specs similar to the Insight's original battery.

One difference is that its terminals are reversed compared with the original battery. The positive cable will reach, but I had to move the negative cable as shown in the attached photo. This was a very easy modification using an existing bolt to connect the original unmodified negative cable to a good ground.

The battery in the photo is an even smaller Odyssey PC680 that has reversed terminals like the Miata battery. It has brass terminals that never corrode. It's also more expensive, but it is 7 years old and still going strong. I used pieces of rigid foam to shim the smaller battery so that it would fit tightly in the battery box. I recall doing something similar when I used a larger Miata battery.
 

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#17 ·
-The DC-DC converter goes into 'low power mode' sometimes quite often, such as during assist, when 12V system load is small (i.e. headlights and AC off, etc.), during auto-stop. At these times 12V system power comes from the 12V battery until voltage drops to about 12.1V...

-In 'low power mode' the car allows discharging down to about 12.1V, at which point the IMA pack begins to supplement the 12V system needs (i.e. energy is taken from the IMA pack to hold 12V system voltage at about 12.1V). So usually, the 12V battery operates between about 12.1 and 14V...



If the car uses the battery down to 12.1v the Insight should be using a deep cycle battery instead of an automotive one, that low of a voltage is close to 50% discharge level which is too much for a starter battery to cycle to. That would easily explain the short 12v battery life of Insights.
 
#18 ·
If the car uses the battery down to 12.1v the Insight should be using a deep cycle battery instead of an automotive one, that low of a voltage is close to 50% discharge level which is too much for a starter battery to cycle to. That would easily explain the short 12v battery life of Insights.
Yeah, that's the conclusion I've come to as well.

What are the disadvantages of a deep cycle battery? Do they have higher internal resistance maybe? Or just more expensive?
 
#20 ·
insight engine batteries have low lifespans? that's news to me. i haven't had to replace one in the 2 and a half years i've owned the cars and the batteries were several years old when i bought the cars.

sounds like another insight myth brewing.
 
#21 ·
^That 'myth' has been around for a long time, so much so it's accepted as IC common wisdom. But, personally, when I was using a lead acid, it worked for at minimum the 6 years since I bought the car used, and as I recall the battery was more like 10+ years. I let it sit for around a year with intermittent charging, and then I tried to use it when my NiMH 12V was sidelined, and it failed the second time I tried to use the 12V starter motor...

If 12V battery health is truly taxed if discharged down to about 12.1V, then failure or not could really depend on the type of driving one does. For instance, if you drive at night most of the time, or with AC ON, or headlights ON, then your 12V system would rarely be allowed to drop to ~12.1V -- and your 12V battery would be fine. But if you drive during the day almost all the time, with minimal accessory use, then your 12V battery would see ~12.1V regularly (I have seen 12.4V on the OBDIIC&C in 'low power mode', but I have measured 200-400mV lower at the battery)...
 
#23 · (Edited)
my 01 was discharged down to a couple volts since i had my flashers on for the tow backwards home for a few hours. it's still alive, lead acid batteries can handle a few deep discharges, i don't quite consider 12.1 to be that far into cycling them since they are immediately brought back up. letting them sit with a low charge though can be a little more problematic, so i don't know how often the car merely lets it drain and sit that low. since the car tends to be picky about starting off the IMA when the engine battery is below 12v, i suspect it isn't as often as it's made out to be.

probably not good for them, but they rarely have a job to do.
 
#26 ·
....i don't quite consider 12.1 to be that far into cycling them since they are immediately brought back up. letting them sit with a low charge though can be a little more problematic, so i don't know how often the car merely lets it drain and sit that low. since the car tends to be picky about starting off the IMA when the engine battery is below 12v, i suspect it isn't as often as it's made out to be. probably not good for them, but they rarely have a job to do.
I perused a bunch of graphs showing lead acid state of charge vs. voltage, doing a google image search. The range I saw from like half a dozen graphs was about 30-50%, more of them on the 30% end though...

With a good, functioning IMA, the 12V battery probably doesn't sit at ~12.1V too long. The low power mode is disabled every time you regen/the car charges the IMA, for instance... I think there's a connection between IMA state of charge and low power mode, too - that if the IMA SoC is on the low side if won't go into low power mode - but then, that might be tied to background charge rather than IMA SoC per se... Other than that though, I've seen long stretches of time in low power mode - no accessories, daytime, just cruising along...
 
#24 · (Edited)
Marine deep cycle batteries can routinely handle 50% discharges and also be used as a starting battery. Automotive starting batteries can only handle a few deep discharges before their capacity is permanently diminished. I have never really paid attention to my 12v battery voltage, but I do not seem to get a lot of life out if them.
 
#25 ·
True. Starting batteries can deliver more cold cranking amps for a given size than a deep cycle. Not very important for us unless you're trying to use a really small battery or live somewhere very cold. My Miata battery is sufficient for Maine so far.

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk
 
#27 ·
at any rate, i did run into the 12v battery being too low for the car to start before, but that was with a non functional IMA system and charging the battery brought it back just fine.

letting a battery sit for long periods of time with less than a 50% charge is more harmful than maybe a couple hours with the battery already warmed up.
 
#28 · (Edited)
i did run into the 12v battery being too low for the car to start before, but that was with a non functional IMA system....
I don't know what load/durations are high for a lead acid... Obviously ~130 amps for the starter motor, for some seconds is OK - so with a 28Ah battery that'd be 130/28=4.6C rate... With the IMA system disabled, the 12V battery sees some serious use:

-regular use of the 12V starter motor, ~130 amps. My car usually starts in a few seconds, 3-5 engine revolutions... I've been kind of keeping an eye on this as I've been thinking about using capacitors...

-at idle, all 12V accessory load comes from the 12V battery, this can be relatively high load. For me, with always-on driving lights and I usually have climate control ON Econ, day time, it's about 18 amps. Lots of stop lights, stop and go traffic, can really take a toll. Normally, the IMA battery would be kicking in. What's worse though is if it's hot: the radiator fan kicks ON and that brings the load up to about 30-38 amps...

I guess these probably aren't too hard on a 28Ah lead-acid, but cumulatively, I can see how even a 28Ah battery would get taxed/could get pretty depleted and always trying to catch up... With my ~6Ah NiMH, it's pretty much a knife edge - I'd run the battery down if I were in stop and go traffic on a hot day, for sure (unless I purposely kept idle speed high)... Not to mention the ~3C, 6C, and 21C discharge rates under the loads I've listed here...
 
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