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Discussion Starter #1
Hi Guys
I just won a bid for a salvage 01 CVT Insight, that I will be turning into a running IMA system demo for our UDHEV hybrid seminar.
http://www.99mpg.com/understandingdiagn/
The car will be here next week.
The car has no key, and is probably in park, so I will have trouble moving it around to work on it.
Does anyone know if I can get a new key made if I present the title and the Vin# to a honda dealor ?
Any Idea what it would cost?
 

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Congradulations on your adoption! :D
 

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IIRC the key's cut can be retrieved by any Honda dealer by VIN.

Your biggest "problem" is the imbedded key chip and its electronic code. Any cut key will simply work the doors any unlock the steering but won't allow the car to start. Only the HDS can program a new key to the immobilizer system. If you already have a key for the existing PCM your using then there are key "clone" machines that can copy the cut and code in one operation. See your local locksmith shop.

If I'm reading between the lines corerctly you don't have a functonal key that corresponds to the PCM. Then your only option is to bring the whole functional assembly (i.e. the car) for the HDS to program the PCM to a new keys imbedded chip. There is no "archive" for immobilizer codes to do it any other way.

If the correctly coded key is damaged simply get a non chipped blank cut to match the lock and tape the two heads together. Probably only a stop gap measure.

Round these parts for a cut blank that has a code chip and a trip to the HDS your in the $120 neighborhood parts and labor. :/

HTH! :)
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Thanks for the help John.
The Coparts info said that there was no key, so I am hoping that the doors are at least unlocked. Joe CVT explained that the CVT can be shifted out of park by inserting any key into the rectangular slot under a pop out cover near the front of the shift console, assuming that the car has a functional 12V battery, so that should let me push it around once I get some inflated tires on it.
This car is to be for demo only, will never be on the road, and could even end up with all components and harnesses on a roll around test stand.
We will need to get the car to run, so the immobilizer issue will somehow need to be resolved.
I put up a collage of photos of the car at:
http://www.99mpg.com/understandingdiagn/
So you can better see what I have to work with.
There is no way I can get this to the nearest dealor who is 25 miles away.
A look at my 2000 electrical service manual shows the Immobilizer reciever communicating with the ECM, and the result is a grounding of the cars fuel cut relay to enable fuel supply.
Is the key code stored in the ECM?
Could I swap ECM's at the dealors with mine for the purposes of key reprogramming with a new key, then swap back to drive home, but this is a CVT and mine is a MT, so it is probably not compatible ?
I have access to a Genesis and a Mastertec scan tool with software that can interface with the scan port, could that reprogram the ECM here?
I suppose I could just add an external ground for the fuel cut relay return as long as the ECM works otherwise?
Suggestions?
 

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CVT can be shifted out of park by inserting any key into the rectangular slot under a pop out cover near the front of the shift console, assuming that the car has a functional 12V battery
Mike, the shift lock over ride is a mechanical linkage that allows you to pull the shifter out of P. No battery needed.
 

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I got a key made recently for my car (the stolen & recovered one) -- it took them over half an hour to program it, with some kind of computer hooked up to it and the car running the whole time (there goes my gas mileage)... so, I don't think there's any way to get the key made "remotely", if that's what you're trying to do. It might be worth it to just rent a car trailer and move the car that way (I guess you'd have to rent the tow car too, if you don't have a vehicle that can tow). Good luck!
 

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Discussion Starter #9
flymuck,
Thanks for the feedback.
I should have the car here by Wed, I don't believe it can run, as the front has been smashed pretty bad, and the radiator looks like it was pushed in. How will they start it for programming without a key?
Three of the 4 tires are off the rims, so I suspect that the front end and possibily the rear as well have rolling issues, so a flatbed would be the only way to move it.
See photos on above link.
I have a lot of anxiety about the cars condition, but will have to wait until it is hand to fully determine the best path to take.
In Dec I bought a flood damaged Silver 2000 MT from the same auction, and was really lucky. The flood had not touched the IMA electronics, and the car started as soon as I replaced the 12V battery. The IMA charged right up, and everything works. I hope I am half as lucky on this one.

The fact that they were able to run your car during the reprogramming, I am assuming means that you either had another key, or they have a way to start it with the computer bypassing the issue of the lack of a programmed key??
 

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Mike Dabrowski 2000 said:
Could I swap ECM's at the dealors with mine for the purposes of key reprogramming with a new key, then swap back to drive home, but this is a CVT and mine is a MT, so it is probably not compatible ?
AFAIK the swap is your only alternative vs a tow. And you are correct it may not be compatable, but AFAIK no harm or damge can be done in trying (I am out a bit on a limb in making this statement. The ETM should show connector incompatabilities e.g. +12v or grounds in different locations MT - CVT). Any you'll need a non chipped key to work the ignition and use the tape the heads together trick until the PCM's are swapped back.

And I am quite sure the only "scan tool" that can code the the key to the immobilizer is the Honda HDS. Maybe Craig's got some connections :?: ;)

If there is an immobilizer defeat I believe its internal to the PCM. And while I am quite sure your smart enough to figure out how, if you do PLEASE keep it confidential. We wouldn't want a hack available to defeat this anti-theft system.

HTH! :)
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Thanks John,
I agree, No need to give any car thiefs the info they need to do their job.

I stopped at a Honda dealership today, and have the full story.
There are 3 keys available.

1. for $5, I can get a key cut from the vin# info, that will unlock the doors and steering column and rotate the start sw.
I guess this is the answer to the "I locked my keys in the car" issue

2. A second key with generic transponder for $30 is available that can be made to start the car after being programmed with a known good key to be a duplicate.

3. A $45 key can be used when the locks have been replaced, and will need to have the car to reprogram the car to accept a new key and new transponder code. A service charge for the programming is added to the Key cost.

of course I will start with option 1. Their key cutter was broke or I would have already got one.

A CVT owner sent me a full set of CVT Insight schematics last year so I could determine compatibility with a certain modification, so I have the electrical info necessary to bypass the transponder, I hope.
I should have the car by Thursday. As the eternal optimist, I am hoping that I find a key tucked away in the glove box or elsewhere.
One of the UDHEV guys say that the Mastertec scanner is supposed to do key reprogramming with the proper software which we do not have???
FYI We are no longer associated with Craig.
 

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Mike Dabrowski 2000 said:
flymuck,
Thanks for the feedback.
I should have the car here by Wed, I don't believe it can run, as the front has been smashed pretty bad, and the radiator looks like it was pushed in. How will they start it for programming without a key?
Three of the 4 tires are off the rims, so I suspect that the front end and possibily the rear as well have rolling issues, so a flatbed would be the only way to move it.
See photos on above link.
I have a lot of anxiety about the cars condition, but will have to wait until it is hand to fully determine the best path to take.
In Dec I bought a flood damaged Silver 2000 MT from the same auction, and was really lucky. The flood had not touched the IMA electronics, and the car started as soon as I replaced the 12V battery. The IMA charged right up, and everything works. I hope I am half as lucky on this one.

The fact that they were able to run your car during the reprogramming, I am assuming means that you either had another key, or they have a way to start it with the computer bypassing the issue of the lack of a programmed key??
Yes, I had another key and remote transmitter, so that's how we were able to run the car. I don't know how they would program the key if you can't run the car, but I think they were just running it so it wouldn't drain the battery -- in other words, if the car's battery has any life at all, they might be able to just use that. It sounds like you are on top of things, esp. about the key options at the dealership (why is it that the key cutting machines seem to be broken everywhere??) (actually, you should make sure they told you the right thing -- when I first went to get my key, one guy told me the key cutting machine was broken, but another guy said that was just the key cutter used for later-style keys that are "laser-cut", not the Insight keys and other older Hondas, which require a different cutting machine).

Good luck!
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Got the $5 key, which does open the doors and turn the Ignition, but as soon as I turned the key, the red alarm light started flashing, and I suspect that if there was still a horn (was gone) that it would be beeping.
The car was hit in front pretty hard, both the engine and CVT were dry. It looks like the CVT bottom cover was crushed when they forklifted the car around the lot, and the water pump pulley is bent sideways about 2 inches.
Anyone know if that tranny cover is aluminum or is it magnesium like the oil pan?
I can probably weld the crack if it is aluminum.
Took most of the afternoon to get 4 rolling wheels on the car and to get it into my garage. I will take a closer look tomorrow.
Thanks for the tips on the key.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Well after a lot of work, the CVT Insight on a stand had it's first powerup.
http://www.99mpg.com/workshops/understandingdiagn/
It was disapointing.
Not only does the immobilizer cut the fuel pump, but it also kills the spark and the injectors, all of which are run by the ECM. Unless someone knows of some trick,not indicated in the service manual, I will have to transport the whole thing to my local honda dealer who wants an hour of labor and $50 for the chip key to program it. $140 for a new key just seems like a big ripoff to me. I will be interesting to see their reaction when we pull in with the thing in my brothers pickup.
From what I understand, the Prius can be reprogrammed by leaving the new chipkey/keyfob in the car with the car in the ready mode for 20 minutes, and it takes care of reprogramming without a scan tool being necessary.
Bummer
:(
 

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Nice pictures Mike. I hope you find a way around the problem, but I'd love to see the look on their faces when you arrive with your Insight/Borg-cube at the dealer! :roll:
 

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Since you won't ( :?: ) need a cut ignition switch key (only the coded immobilizer portion, the transponder) you have 2 lower cost options:

1) Have a second cut key made for your Insight and bring along your "Insight-on-a-stand's" ECM. Have both ECM's programmed for the same key (requires 0 "tows", 1 new key, ECM swap, and 2 interrogations with the HDS, one for each ECM). You now have a working 2nd key for your Insight. And both can operate the "Insight-on-a-stand".

2) Have your existing Insight key(s) programmed to the "Insight-on-a-stand's" ECM. Bring it along with your Insight (requires 0 tows, 1 ECM swap and 1 interrogation with the HDS).

If for some reason you need to physically rotate the Insight-on-a-stand's key switch get a $2 Wal-Mart copy and then piggy-back a correctly coded transponder key during the cranking operation. Once the transponder code unlocks the fuel and ignition functions (starts the car) its proximity to the induction coil / antenna (at the key switch) is irrelavent to maintain engine operation.

Once the "Insight-on-a-stand" ECM's code is set to a known good transponder key such keys can be cloned for around $50 at any automotive locksmith shop.

And it you still want the pleasure of seeing the look on their faces as Kip suggests :lol: you can also tow the whole thing down there and do the same above.

Seems to me the Prius immobilizer's "security" is inherently less "secure". There are no documented "tricks" to circumvent the immobilizer lock-out functions. See my eariler post in this thread.

HTH! :)
 

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Discussion Starter #17
John,
Thanks for the suggestions.
If the ECM's were swapable, your suggestions would be a great way to eliminate the need to transport the stand but they will still sock me for the programming.
In an earlier response, we discussed the possibility of swapping my 2000MT ECM with the 2001 CVT ECM, so I compared the signals.
I got a copy of the CVT schematics and connector info from Mike Saboe a CVT owner, and found that the following signals were different on the CVT.
While most of the signals should not cause any electrical problems,in my 2000MT the A-14 immobilizer write enable signal does not exist on the 2000MT, so the immobilizers seem to have changed from 2000 to 2001 and up, so the cvt ECM may not write new key codes without the signal??

The differences are listed below for refrence.
ECM A-11 on the cvt is the air fuel ratio sensor heater control
NC on the 2000 MT
same signal as cvt on the 2001---MT
ECM A-14 on the cvt is the Immobilizer write enable signal
NC on the 2000 MT ****** enable signal not there
same signal as cvt on the 2001---MT
ECM A-31 on the cvt is the idlestop switch
NC on the 2000 MT
ECM B-6 on the cvt is the TCM voltage refrence
NC on the 2000 MT
ECM B-14 on the cvt is the neutral/park position sw
Clutch sw on the 2000 MT
ECM B-16 on the cvt is the D position signal
Neutral sw on the 2000 MT
ECM B-24 on the cvt is the R position signal
Reverse sw on the 2000---- MT ****** inverted logic
ECM C-1 on the cvt is the third heated O2 sensor heater control
NC on the 2000 MT
ECM C-11 on the cvt is the TCM-ECM data communication
NC on the 2000 MT
ECM C-15 on the cvt is the TCM-ECM data communication
shift indicator lamp output 2000-----MT***
ECM C-16 on the cvt is the third O2 sensor signal
NC on the 2000 MT


I need to transport the thing to the classes anyways, and I will have to work out a nice way to do it, so this just forces me to deal with that now rather than later.
I may just build a custom trailer for it with an enclosed box that can be removed?
I like Kips comparison to a Borg Cube, and definately want to see their reaction when I bring it in.
I will probably just pay the price and get a real key that will start the car by rotating the lock, and be done with it.
:roll:
I agree that this is tight immobilizer, and feel pretty secure knowing that there is no easy way to hack the system.
I believe that Toyotas logic is that if someone has 20 minutes to wait, they probably own the car?
thanks for the suggestions.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Finally got a lift hook on the stand, lifted it unto a buddies pickup, brought it to my local Honda dealer.
The Key cost me $51. Half of the mechanics skipped out to see what the strange Borg cube on the pickup was all about, and we had a lively discussion about the IOS and hybrid training.
After programming the system, the motor started on the first crank. Yea!
:D
They had so much fun, that they did not charge for the programming.
another Yea for that.

The bottom line on the function of the immobilizer.
The immobilizer turns off the fuel shutoff valve, stops firing the plugs, and stops the fuel Injectors, all are controlled in the ECM.
If you swap ECM, you need to reprogram.
No chance of hot wiring an Insight. We can all rest easy about getting our babies stolen.

http://www.99mpg.com/workshops/understandingdiagn/
 

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Re: hot wire insight

I'm not so sure about the Insight being ' hot wire proof' any more. After market defeat modules exist for a few dollars that bypass the immobilizer ( for the purpose of allowing an after market alarm to remote start the car ) . Hence my quest for after market countermeasures.


Mike Dabrowski 2000 said:
The bottom line on the function of the immobilizer.
The immobilizer turns off the fuel shutoff valve, stops firing the plugs, and stops the fuel Injectors, all are controlled in the ECM.
If you swap ECM, you need to reprogram.
No chance of hot wiring an Insight. We can all rest easy about getting our babies stolen.

http://www.99mpg.com/workshops/understandingdiagn/
 
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