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The OEM passenger side drive shafts have another downside - They rot under the harmonic damper and snap at the most inconvenient time . Ask me how I know.
I don't drive exuberantly enough to notice a difference, but the replacement from RockAuto seems to be working fine so far. OEM from Honda was over $800 as I recall.
 

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Discussion Starter · #22 ·
The OEM passenger side drive shafts have another downside - They rot under the harmonic damper and snap at the most inconvenient time . Ask me how I know.
I don't drive exuberantly enough to notice a difference, but the replacement from RockAuto seems to be working fine so far. OEM from Honda was over $800 as I recall.

Wow yeah could see that happening especially in rust belt area's heck im in colorado and we don't get much rust at all yet you can still see it invaded one end of the original axle shaft --- paint is a double edge sword too, it works great until it does't --- then it holds salt and moisture and just festers 24-7...
 

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CVT owners need not read, Iv owned my 2000 G-1 for over a year now and have done a multitude of improvements since I go it, but ever since the get-go I knew the axle shafts were undersized and hated the effect when taking off fast, sometimes breaking the front wheels loose and feeling the "rubber band" effect,

the axles are just too wimpy and act like torsion bars, the front tires will go through a "slip and grip" motion and it's totally nasty feeling,,,

but I also questioned the frequency of the effect on a particular problem I have --- I have clutch chatter when trying to take off slow, so I speculated that maybe what's making it far worse is the "springing" effect of the 19.8mm axle shafts...

so called a tech at rock-auto to see what the size of the aftermarket trac-motions were, I believe he told me 24mm shafts --- well I got them yesterday and they are really only 22.1 mm, but that's still a huge difference esp. the passenger side which is doubly as long as the driver side is - so it's by far your critical link if you can only afford to get one shaft get that one, but I got both,,,

I put them in last night - took the car out and WOW what a nice difference,,, I can light up the front hides if I want and it just burns through without pogo-ing and spooling up the wimpy shaft then breaking loose then grabbing and spooling up repeat repeat,,, that's all gone now,,,

The added bennie is my theory was also correct on the clutch chatter, it upset the rebound frequency and all but eliminated it - I still feel pulsations but now that they cannot get compounded by the axle shaft acting as a torsion bar they do not get out of control --- this was very upsetting when wanting to baby the car and take off slow and then having the whole vehicle go into "shake mode" not anymore,,,

so - just sharing this, if you have similar problems with your G-1 Manual you might want to check into this remedy... gaining only 2.3mm (or close to .090") of axle diameter may not sound like allot but when it's over the course of many feet it definitely all adds up...

My old shafts and joints were still good - no ripped boots or anything - but I knew these cars had a problem in this area so took a chance at tossing a beef up solution at it and it panned out great...

below is the pic of the two long shafts and you can see the size difference - there's kinda an optical illusion going on with the dampener making the old shaft look a little bigger than it actually is - just block the dampener out with the tip of your pinky and you will see what i mean,,,

View attachment 93637
Interesting. I like it. I can add that a clutch friction disc with a lot of miles and years loses its spring cushion that is between the friction materials. Replacing the friction disc restores that cushion and the chatter disappears.
G
 

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Super interesting research you've done. Having considerable shudder in my daily driver, last month I went to replace my engine mounts, only to find that the existing ones are just fine. Standing by for someone else to replicate your results, and then I'll do it myself. Thanks for taking the time to write this up!
 

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Super interesting research you've done. Having considerable shudder in my daily driver, last month I went to replace my engine mounts, only to find that the existing ones are just fine. Standing by for someone else to replicate your results, and then I'll do it myself. Thanks for taking the time to write this up!
I ordered a set, and I have a set of Scott's front springs to do at the same time, but not sure which car to put it in (my red car, which is migrating toward performance, or my green car, which is migrating toward hypermiling). I suppose I should change only the shafts, mount some accelerometers on it and invent some before and after tests (like hard acceleration from a start and across a line of sand to cause a wheel to break free and initiate the vibration - maybe one only needs to replace the longer shaft)

Oh my, another project....
 

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Having considerable shudder in my daily driver...
I just remembered that you have LiBCM in there and probably are operating the IMA motor at 50% more power which would make the wheels break free with a very small amount of gravel and start the shudder. I wonder then if this is an important mod for those with higher-than-stock low end torque. Also have to wonder if the induced ringing from underdamped driveshaft has detrimental effects to the rest of the drivetrain, which would make this an important mod, or if there was a reason other than weight savings and cost that dictates a smaller driveshaft diameter.
 

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Hi yes like the post title says it's for a G-1 2000 manual trans,,, im not sure about any of the following years did not research that but id bet it's the same for manuals all the way to 2006

pt # is HO-8446 for the longer passenger side (right) and HO-8447 for the shorter drivers side (left)

Thank you! I will stash this for future use.

Tim
 

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Discussion Starter · #28 ·
Interesting. I like it. I can add that a clutch friction disc with a lot of miles and years loses its spring cushion that is between the friction materials. Replacing the friction disc restores that cushion and the chatter disappears.
G
That can be a factor for sure - the spring type clutch packs like in the insight are assembled with a small amount of pre-load on the springs but they can wear and get relaxed,
The design is really not meant to take care of clutch chatter - but it can help although due to the springs not having "shock absorber's" as well the system can also create re-bound effect and make chatter even worse,,, just depends it's all about that "frequency thing",
The spring loaded clutch pack system is designed to isolate the engine from the transmission - without it engine harmonics would be directly transferred into the transmission gears and bearing shorting their lifespan due to "spike loading" ,,,

There really is no correlation between the massive "rubber band" effect of the wimpy CV axle shafts VS the clutch pack springs,,,, the clutch is operating at a ratio several times higher than the axle shafts even given any kind of gear choice, the clutch spring pack also has only a small degree for travel before they hit the limiters,

so in comparison - if you can imagine both axle shafts together giving up 90 degree's of torsion under all out conditions it could mean the engine has to "wind up" a complete revolution or two, after all first gear is mostly where the problem lies due to being able to create the highest torque loading of the shafts so ratio's get extreme,,,
that's where the "spongy feeling" of these cars characteristics happen,

due to the clutch pack springs only having maybe 5 degree's of travel and also being on the higher RPM of the equation they are not capable of "lurching" the entire drivetrain back and forth with "stop and go wheel spin"...

In hindsight --- and since iv been driving the car for days now, im glad the upgrades are only 22mm, it's all the car needed, there's no reason to have bigger as everything is fine now,,, Also like Sean stated - although honda pushed it too far - maybe it's good to keep a little elasticity into the system that has to deal with the higher torque due to it being on the ring gear side of the equation and not the pinon...
 

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I would like to also advocate for the trackmotiv axles being an improvement over the original equipment. I had a clunking CV axle that ended up needing replaced, I opted to replace both axles. While the car still has a slight shake on takeoff it's an enormous improvement over the stock axles.
 

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Discussion Starter · #30 ·
High Miles im glad to hear you at least had some level of success with the beefier axle shafts,,, are all of your mounts in good condition? that could end up being the icing on the cake... thanks for keeping us posted.
 

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High Miles im glad to hear you at least had some level of success with the beefier axle shafts,,, are all of your mounts in good condition? that could end up being the icing on the cake... thanks for keeping us posted.
Rear mount is new, side mounts are kinda roached but they were pulled from a donor so eh. The shakes are most prominent from a failed rear mount, so most of the vibration is gone there.
 

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Discussion Starter · #32 ·
I did end up replacing my side mounts because even though they are absorbing energy's in a different direction just in holding the weight of the engine and trans they are still affected by it torsionally in fact all's you have to do to make a little assessment on it is just measure the distance where the torsion is taking place (the axle shafts) and where all mounts are located in relation to the shafts,,,

the side mounts also contain "fore and aft" rubber "limiters" if your mounts do not have them then your missing components within the mount itself, my trans side was missing and I could see where the mount as allowing the metal of the mount to contact the mounts containing frame, god awful noise but it took a full blown peel out to make it happen and took the old axle shafts springing things back and forth...
 

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That can be a factor for sure - the spring type clutch packs like in the insight are assembled with a small amount of pre-load on the springs but they can wear and get relaxed,
The design is really not meant to take care of clutch chatter - but it can help although due to the springs not having "shock absorber's" as well the system can also create re-bound effect and make chatter even worse,,, just depends it's all about that "frequency thing",
The spring loaded clutch pack system is designed to isolate the engine from the transmission - without it engine harmonics would be directly transferred into the transmission gears and bearing shorting their lifespan due to "spike loading" ,,,

There really is no correlation between the massive "rubber band" effect of the wimpy CV axle shafts VS the clutch pack springs,,,, the clutch is operating at a ratio several times higher than the axle shafts even given any kind of gear choice, the clutch spring pack also has only a small degree for travel before they hit the limiters,

so in comparison - if you can imagine both axle shafts together giving up 90 degree's of torsion under all out conditions it could mean the engine has to "wind up" a complete revolution or two, after all first gear is mostly where the problem lies due to being able to create the highest torque loading of the shafts so ratio's get extreme,,,
that's where the "spongy feeling" of these cars characteristics happen,

due to the clutch pack springs only having maybe 5 degree's of travel and also being on the higher RPM of the equation they are not capable of "lurching" the entire drivetrain back and forth with "stop and go wheel spin"...

In hindsight --- and since iv been driving the car for days now, im glad the upgrades are only 22mm, it's all the car needed, there's no reason to have bigger as everything is fine now,,, Also like Sean stated - although honda pushed it too far - maybe it's good to keep a little elasticity into the system that has to deal with the higher torque due to it being on the ring gear side of the equation and not the pinon...
I get what you're saying but I was not talking about the springs in the hub of the clutch. I was referring to the spring plate between the friction material that the friction material is riveted to. It definitely moderates the engagement.
 

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Discussion Starter · #34 ·
I get what you're saying but I was not talking about the springs in the hub of the clutch. I was referring to the spring plate between the friction material that the friction material is riveted to. It definitely moderates the engagement.
Ahh Yes for sure - misunderstood you, I actually think the spring plate "sandwich" material is probably even more important to clutch chatter than the spring pack as that's more for isolating the trans from the engine harmonics/vibrations...

and the "sandwich" material can loose it's "spring" with just one serious disc overheat,,,

good point thanks for correcting me...
 

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I live in a low traffic area. Plus I live on top of a hill. I push my car off get up to 18 miles an hour then crank in fifth gear.

on stop and go at stop signs I have gotten away with going about 1 mile an hour before crossing. I never come to a complete stop if possible. I live out in the country. Some of the stop signs I’m going 22 miles an hour the road I live on.low low low traffic. Also at work it’s on a hill push the car off there too.

I think I would like to replace the axle on the passenger side first. Terrific article it’s good to see people who have open minds.

My car weighs 150 pounds less than showroom. And I only put two or 3 gallons Gas in at a time to keep the weight down.

That’s one of the pictures from my car. Also use very high air pressure which again would reduce strain on the axles. My tires were at 130 psi for two years then I went back to 100 now I’m at 80 psi. Trying to make the tires last longer 9 years old.
Potenza RE 92.I’ve had my car 41/2 years my top speed is 50 mph. And it’s rare for me to do that 35 to 45 mph average speed for me.
 

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My tires were at 130 psi for two years then I went back to 100 now I’m at 80 psi. Trying to make the tires last longer 9 years old.
Potenza RE 92.
Please replace your tires before you wreck your car and hurt yourself or someone else. The money you saved means nothing after the hospital bill, totalling the car, or ending up in a box. I'm certain they are nice and dry and will hydroplane if you blink in a car that's already known for doing it because of the moronic rear track width
 

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Discussion Starter · #37 ·
I live in a low traffic area. Plus I live on top of a hill. I push my car off get up to 18 miles an hour then crank in fifth gear.

on stop and go at stop signs I have gotten away with going about 1 mile an hour before crossing. I never come to a complete stop if possible. I live out in the country. Some of the stop signs I’m going 22 miles an hour the road I live on.low low low traffic. Also at work it’s on a hill push the car off there too.

I think I would like to replace the axle on the passenger side first. Terrific article it’s good to see people who have open minds.

My car weighs 150 pounds less than showroom. And I only put two or 3 gallons Gas in at a time to keep the weight down.

That’s one of the pictures from my car. Also use very high air pressure which again would reduce strain on the axles. My tires were at 130 psi for two years then I went back to 100 now I’m at 80 psi. Trying to make the tires last longer 9 years old.
Potenza RE 92.I’ve had my car 41/2 years my top speed is 50 mph. And it’s rare for me to do that 35 to 45 mph average speed for me.

Wow I do commend your efforts - that's what these cars do to some of us, they create "extremism" in hypermiling,

Your fuel mileage reading and especially for those amount of miles is the best iv ever seen,,,

I can get my 70mpg rating if I try to keep the speed down below 65mph and I just run regular tires with the recommended pressure,

What is the PSI rating on your potenza's?

I will say this much --- overinflating a tire is serious business,,, know of a guy who was just trying to get a bead seated on a brand new tire and had to go over the recommended pressure rating,,, it was a stubborn bead so he kept adding a little more, the tire blew apart, almost killed him - powdered his facial bones,,, disfigured for life, even his son who was standing behind him got maimed...

I cannot imagine what kind of "bomb" 130psi would create but can tell you I would not even feel comfortable walking past your car with that kinda pressure...

I like some of your other "tricks" with parking on a hill and coast starting and all...

We all do need to try and "catch ourselves" , to me these are some of the most fun and interactive vehicles ever built and even the "live data" on the dash can become a fixation/distraction with all there is to do and monitor...

When I first bought my G-1 I had to keep reminding myself that driving is still job 1 lol and all the other stuff was only when it was convenient to look at...
I do wonder once in awhile how many of these little cars hit the scrap yard due to what I just mentioned...

anyways - glad you at least cut the pressure down some, have fun and stay safe...
 

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Discussion Starter · #38 ·
Please replace your tires before you wreck your car and hurt yourself or someone else. The money you saved means nothing after the hospital bill, totalling the car, or ending up in a box. I'm certain they are nice and dry and will hydroplane if you blink in a car that's already known for doing it because of the moronic rear track width
His saving grace could be that he keeps the speed down to 45 or below... but Woe yeah you bring up a good point about the rears track width and hydroplaning ----------- the rear of cars "generally" fair well due to the front's already just clearing a path for water being built up...
but for G-1's most of the rears track is hitting uncleared area,
So your basically "hanging it out there" with all 4 wheels having the immediate potential to "take flight"

Not good....

Iv yet to be caught in real heavy rain so need to keep this all in mind when I do,
I have driven on crunchy snow/ice and immediately could tell that the car was misbehaving badly -- very squirrely and unpredictable... just does not "own the weight" for the tires to get down to business... and also like you stated - the rears are not getting the opportunity to follow in the front's tireprint...
 

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I have purchased six of these cars. And they’ve came with several different tire brand names. 70 pounds and any other tire brand destroys that tire. The Potenza are unbelievably superior as far as air pressure exaggeration goes.

The temporary tires will also go up to 130 psi on the little yellow spare donuts. Even had one of the top members on here witness it and ride in the car. Some things are just way better than others even though they look alike.

anyway I saw a video where a lot of car tires don’t blow up until 220 psi. But with my experiments there’s nothing even close to the Potenza for toughness.

I stay off the roads when it rains because of loss of traction. And you will spin out if you turn into a road that has gravel in it even at low speed it’s like being on ice skates

and the ride is surprisingly real bad that’s why you drive slow.🤓

I do not recommend anybody doing what I’m doing. And there is next to no gain from 80 psi on up to 150. I drove at 1:50 psi for one day just to see if it would go into a new level of efficiency. It did not.

The way I test
There’s a great big hill on the road I live on. And there is a mailbox before you start to climb the hill. So I go by that mailbox at different speeds and hit the clutch. 35 miles an hour at the mailbox I can get over the hill. 34 miles an hour I have to get out and push the car.That’s at 100 psi.

50 up to 60 even 70 psi 34 miles an hour will not climb the hill. So it’s a little Science to it.

I don’t think there’s any advantage to go over 90 psi to get better mileage after four years of doing it. I’ve got the tires at 80 so the ride is a little better. And I want them to last a little longer!
 

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Discussion Starter · #40 ·
I think I would like to replace the axle on the passenger side first. Terrific article it’s good to see people who have open minds.
I forgot to comment on this initial statement of yours,

with what you described on your driving habits there's no real reason for you to go with an "upgrade" axle,,,

your not ever even testing the engines performance and you almost never even use the clutch lol

it would be a waste of time and money replacing them...

I drive very mellow about 95 % of the time - but have to admit sometimes can't keep my foot out of it especial when I feel the need to "roll a little diesel repellent" onto a Dodge Duelly from a stop light --- knowing full well that if I don't I will be forced to hit the re-circulation button to keep his soot out of my shnazz....

Nobody's gonna push around the pea shooter without a fight,,, like a boy named Sue it's got an attitude all it's own... sometimes it goes out just looking for trouble all on it's own and I feel like im just being held hostage....
 
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