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Discussion Starter #1
I could have sworn I was able to put the car into 1st gear at 10 mph, but lately, it grinds unless I am at 4mph or less. The dealer said The car should be stopped, but we all know how fun it is to take off from a crawl in 2nd gear. Am I nutz or does this sound right?
 

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It's important to rev match when downshifting between any gears and it's absolutely essential to successfuly downshift into 1st gear.
Double clutch downshifting is a more reliable technique for downshifting into 1st gear at lower RPM. From high RPMs rev-matching is all that's needed to smoothly downshift into 1st gear (while racing).

The following article mostly explains how to double clutch downshift.
Believe it or not it's easier to learn how to smoothly downshift this way before learning how to heal and toe downshift (braking and rev-matching with the right foot as the left foot presses the clutch during the downshift).

I found this on the web but I lost the link.
Welcome to the world of advanced shifting techniques that will extend the life of your clutch and syncros to the point that they will outlast your car.
G

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PROPER MANUAL TRANSMISSION DRIVING TECHNIQUES

What follows is a collection of writings which I have posted at various times on this website in an effort to help answer some questions regarding the proper manner in which a manual transmission should be operated. While there are certainly many ways to drive a car with a manual transmission, there is really only one correct way. I was most fortunate to have learned these techniques while I was still in my teenage years. In so doing, I was able to avoid developing entrenched habits before they became really bad habits and difficult to correct. It is my hope that this helps you learn what I have learned and perfected over the years. If you do, you will reap the rewards, both financial and in the knowledge that you have mastered a technique that few do in their lifetimes. Have fun!



Under normal driving situations (not racing), when you start out from a standing start, you do so with the lowest possible RPMs, get the clutch out to full engagement as soon as you can while adding throttle. If you do this correctly, the transition will be smooth and seamless, and the wear on your clutch disk, pressure plate, release bearing, and flywheel will be minimized.

If properly designed (sufficient size and clamping pressure, etc.), and properly installed with no defects (correct torque, non-faulty equipment, alignment, etc.), then the next, and most important, factor to the life of the clutch assembly is the operator.

THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO REASON WHY A CLUTCH CANNOT LAST THE LIFE OF THE ENGINE UNDER NORMAL DRIVING CONDITIONS.

When I speak of engine life here, I am referring to life before a serious teardown or part replacement such as a timing chain (200,000+ miles) or headwork. If you cannot get at least 100,000 miles out of a clutch, you are doing something terribly wrong. Obviously, racing constitutes a whole different approach and, as such, does not come under this.


Don'ts:

Do not use any more engine speed (RPMs) than absolutely necessary to get the car rolling in first gear.

Do not hold the car on a hill with the clutch.

Do not wait for a traffic light to turn green with the transmission in gear and the clutch depressed.

Do not rest your foot on the clutch while driving.


Do not ride the clutch in any gear (obviously you will to a small degree in first to start off).

Do not down shift by just removing your foot from the gas, moving the shifter into a lower gear, then releasing the clutch slowly.


Do's

Start off smoothly and with low engine speed, and shift in such a manner that if you had a passenger on board, they would not even notice the shifts.

Hold the car on hills with the brakes.. that's what brakes are for. NEVER hold a car on a hill with the clutch. The amount of heat generated by doing this is incredible.

While waiting for a light to change or while sitting in heavy traffic, put the transmission in neutral and get your foot completely off of the clutch petal. Leaving it in gear for extended periods heats up and shortens the life of the release bearing. The normal condition of a clutch is fully engaged so it stands to reason that's where it should be most of the time.

Resting your foot on the clutch petal while driving engages the release bearing.. see above.

Avoid riding the clutch as much as is humanly possible. You will extend its life significantly.

If you do not know how to properly downshift, DON’T. Use the brakes (should do this anyway), and avoid downshifting any more than necessary. Improper downshifting is analogous to riding the clutch because that is what you are actually doing. Learn how to properly downshift first and save yourself the frustration of premature clutch failure.


Clutches are wear items, heavily affected by heat caused by friction. In a front wheel drive car, they are costly to replace, so unless you like shelling out a lot of money periodically for the replacement of these components, learn the correct way. Learn it until it becomes second nature like breathing.

I spent some time teaching a lady with whom I worked 10 years ago these techniques when she purchased a new '92 Honda Accord LX. When I last spoke with her, she had well over 140,000 miles on the original clutch with no signs of slippage. So I'm not jerking anyone's chain here. Learn to operate a manual transmission correctly and you will reap the rewards by saving a lot of money. Plus you will be one of the few who know how to do this right.


I don't mean to set myself up here as some kind of guru because I am not. But I have been driving manual transmissioned cars for over 40 years. I have spent the time to perfect the process into an art form because when done correctly, that’s what it is. When I sold my '88 Mustang LX 302CID, it was 6 years old and had 77,000 miles on it. When the buyer drove it, he asked me when I replaced the clutch because to him, it felt very positive. I told him that I had never replaced it and that it was the original unit. I added that it wouldn't make any sense to replace a clutch after only 77,000 miles since that is not very much wear. He had a little bit of a hard time believing this, but he did buy the car. Three months later, he called me up to let me know how much he liked the car and to tell me had had not wrapped it around a tree. He again asked about the clutch and I again told him that it was the original clutch.

I used to own a 1966 Chevelle SS396/360HP. I was the original owner of the car. For a period of about 2 years, I was street racing the car frequently on the weekends. At 83,000 miles when I sold it, it would still break traction in all four gears and the clutch had no slippage. It was tight and strong. Now granted, American cars have traditionally had stronger clutches than Japanese cars. This is changing because the Japanese are putting larger and stronger (torque) engines in their cars.



Downshifting

Ah yes, downshifting. If I had to name just one facet of manual transmission errors-of-operation, this would probably be it.

To understand how to operate a manual transmission, you have to know how the clutch assembly and transmission work, and I am going to take the assumption that most do on this forum. I will only clarify synchronizers. They serve to match the speed of the gears in the transmission as the shifter is moved to a given gear. Now for downshifting.

Let's say you are in fourth gear and you are approaching a stop sign, so you decide to downshift from fourth gear into third. What most people do is just remove their foot from the throttle, depress the clutch while moving the shifter from fourth to third, then start releasing the clutch slowly until they achieve full engagement. If you do this, what you are actually doing is riding the clutch in third gear. After all, the engine has returned to idle (or close to it), you get into third, then just ease the clutch out which pulls the engine from idle up to the RPM's at which it will operate at whatever speed you are traveling in third gear. Here is the correct way to do this in steps that I will break down in a moment.

Raise your foot off of the throttle.

Depress the clutch.

Start the shifter up into third.

As you pass through the neutral gate, let the clutch out (doesn't have to be all the way) while at the same time blipping the throttle to increase engine speed BEYOND that which it will operate in the chosen lower gear.

Depress the clutch again.

Engage the chosen lower gear.

Let the clutch out while adding throttle.

As the engine RPM's decrease they will be met by the engaging clutch and opening throttle.

This should be a simple, smooth, fluid motion and you will know you've done it right if there is no jerking as the clutch comes out in the last step. Now for some details.

As you move into the neutral gate with your foot off of the throttle, the engine RPM's will be returning to idle. This is the point at which you want to blip the throttle a bit while at the same time engaging the clutch some. You want to get the engine turning faster than it will when you are in the lower gear you have chosen. The reason is that you want to spin the gears up to a speed that equals that at which they will be operating when you finally release the clutch in your downshift. If you do this right, there is no clutch slippage because the engine and the gears in the transmission will be spinning at the same or nearly the same RPM's. No slippage means you will get into gear with full engagement of the clutch sooner and with virtually no wear. To best understand this, you really need to know how a clutch assembly and transmission work together to deliver power from the engine to the drive wheels.

This takes a lot of practice, but if you get it down, you will be heads and shoulders above just about anyone else who drives a car with a manual transmission. You will begin to notice the mistakes other are making when they drive. Learn from their mistakes and it will both save you money and make you a far better driver.

So it's in with the clutch, start the shifter into the chosen lower gear, while passing through the neutral gate, blip the throttle and at the same time engage the clutch a bit to spin up the gears, then back in with the clutch as you get into the chosen gear, then finally release the clutch in one smooth operation.

Here's another little tip. Say you are waiting at a light for the green and your transmission is in neutral like it should be with your foot completely off of the clutch petal. When the light turns green, instead of just depressing the clutch and pushing the shifter up into first, pull the shifter partially into a higher gear first, such as second or third. The gears in those selections are not spinning as fast as the gears in first. By starting the shifter into a higher gear before you go to into first gear, you will cause less wear on the synchronizers and they will last far longer because they do not have to stop gears which are spinning at a higher speed. For cars which do not have synchronized reverse, definitely do this and you will not experience the grinding affect when shifting into reverse.


Say you are driving normally, shifting up through the gears to the one in which you wish to be for cruising. As you disengage the clutch and move the shifter to the next higher gear, you might notice a slight resistance just before you finish the shift. What you feel is the synchronizer for that gear forcing the drive gear(s) from the input shaft and the gears selected to "mesh". That is to say, their speeds are forced to equalize so that as they engage, there is no grinding and no damage to the gear teeth. That said, we can move to double clutching.

Double clutching was a technique that came about when earlier manual transmissions did not have synchronizers. If you did not double clutch, you would experience some serious gear grinding when shifting.

If you did not have synchronizers in you transmission, you would have had two choices when shifting gears: (1) put up with some really serious grinding and damage/breakage to gear teeth, or (2) manually match the speed of the gears in each selected shift so that you would eliminate the problems just mentioned in #1.

Suppose you are traveling in second gear, the engine is turning at 2500 RPM, and you are getting ready to shift to third. At the road speed you are going, let's say that once in third, your engine would be turning at 1800 RPM. When you remove your foot from the gas, the engine is going to loose RPMs quickly and by the time you get into third, the engine might only be turning 1200 RPM. Without synchronizers, you would need to raise the engine back up to 1800 RPM in order for the gears to mesh. By blipping the throttle and at the same time letting the clutch out some when you are passing through the neutral gate, you will both increase engine RPM and increase gear speed. As the engine RPMs fall back off, they will reach a point at which you will be able to complete the shift.

Now downshifting is much like this, only in reverse. In other words, you are going from a higher gear to a lower gear so if your engine was turning at 2500 RPM and you wanted to shift to second, You would want to blip the throttle enough to raise engine speed to perhaps around 3200 - 3500 RPM.


When you are upshifting, the RPMs fall off and most people find it pretty easy to adjust to this and to add throttle at the right time so that when the clutch comes back out, they have the proper RPM's for the gear selection/road speed.

However, most people downshift by (1) removing their foot from the throttle, (2) moving the shifter into the next lower (or chosen) gear, then (3) slowly releasing the clutch while adding little or no throttle. This is NOT the proper manner in which to downshift. What you are doing in effect, is riding the clutch in reverse. In others, you probably wouldn't dare attempt to start your car off in third gear because you would have to add a lot of throttle and really slip the clutch to get the car moving. When you downshift like the example I just gave, you are doing something similar to starting off in a higher gear, though it does take more energy to get a car moving from a dead start. Now if you double clutch during the downshift, you are spinning up the gears and the transition to the next gear will be quite smooth.


Junkyard asked a question about the concept of “passing through the neutral gate”. You don’t stop or stay in neutral. You are just passing through, so to speak. In your second question, you said I had mentioned to put the car in neutral when downshifting. Not exactly. Try this with the engine off.

Put the car in fourth. Depress the clutch and shift to third and let the clutch out. Now do the same thing, only this time as you pass through the neutral gate, let the clutch out some or a good deal and blip the throttle, then clutch back in, get into third, clutch comes out for the final time. That is the movement you want.

Incidentally, blipping the throttle is just a little stab at the petal, enough to raise RPMs to the desired level. You do not want to be on the throttle long because you will be in the process of shifting. Yes, this does take a lot of practice and may not come easily for many, but it is the best way, in fact the only proper way, to downshift because it very significantly reduces clutch and synchronizer wear (especially clutch), and once you get the hang of it, you will be able to do it quite fast.

The bottom line to all of this folks is to match engine speed to wheel speed in a given gear, and to do it in such a manner as to eliminate undue trauma to your drive train. I do this all of the time and have been downshifting like this since my very early 20's. I actually learned it from a magazine article (as I can best recall). If you know how a manual transmission and clutch assembly operate, all of the components and how they perform together, you will understand the beauty of the process.

Oh the grinding noise Junkyard hears when he starts letting up the clutch too quickly is most likely due to not having fully engaged the gear teeth and they separate (pop out of gear). That or he actually begins engaging the gear teeth before the clutch is fully depress so there is still some flywheel/disk/pressure plate contact.

One of the things I noticed right off the bat on my SE was that the clutch began to engage much too close to the floor for me (a contributor to the problem Junkyard has had). It was starting to engage about 1 inch from the floor, so I adjusted it out to 2 inches and it is fine. If you do this, just make sure you have the required toeplay, otherwise you will prematurely wear out your release bearing.


The purpose of letting the clutch out some as you pass through the neutral gate is to spin the gears up in preparation for the speed at which they must be at for the lower gear selection. This will allow you to get into that gear very easily. When you depress the clutch, you disengage the crankshaft from the transmission. The gears in the transmission will begin to slow down. By letting out the clutch some (or completely) in the neutral gate, you once again, MOMENTARILY, engage the full drive train and get the gears spinning. Only this time since you have blipped the throttle, they'll be spinning faster. As they slow down from the higher speed, your clutch will be coming out for the final time with the transmission in gear and the mesh will be smooth.

Try it both ways. Do it first the way you do it and notice that you have to add a little bit of force to get the shifter into gear. That's because the synchronizers are doing their job of gear speed meshing. Now try it the way I outlined and if you do it right, you will have virtually no resistance as you slip the shifter into your chosen gear.


Instead of going right into first as the light starts to go green, try starting the shifter into second gear.. don't have to go all the way into gear, though it won't hurt. This slows the gears down just as though you had gone on into first, but it's much easier on the synchronizers. And you won't get the "crunch" you mentioned when you have to move quickly.



To prevent rollback; practice, practice, practice, practice.

One way to do this is to find a nice little hill someplace where you won't be a bother to anyone. Take along some masking tape and mark off two sections with the tape a foot apart. Your goal is to keep the car from coasting back more than 1 foot.. of course you do not use the clutch to hold the car.. use the brakes. As you learn to do this, find another hill a little steeper. And so on, and so on.


__________________
PVick
2002 Alty SE, Silver/Charcoal
214CID V6, Manual Trans
 

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If the clutch is not fully dissengaing or the oil is wrong (too thick, or not MTF) in the transmission it could have this effect as the weather gets cold. This is a recent occurence right?
 

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Discussion Starter #4
I just had the manual transmission fluid changed. Could be a clutch thing...
 

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AHA! You're definately a High-miler. :wink: This may sound obvious but what about the fluid/seals in the hydraulic clutch?

You probably don't need this but here is a brief description of the clutch pedal adjustment. (The shop manual should be referenced for diagrams and your specific model.)

Clutch Pedal and Clutch Switch Adjustment:

The clutch is self-adjusting to compensate for wear. If there is no clearance between the master cylinder piston and push rod, the release bearing is held against the diaphragm spring, which can result in clutch slippage or other clutch problems.

1. Loosen locknut and back off the adjusting bolt (B) until it no longer touches the clutch pedal.

2. Loosen the locknut and turn the push rod in or out to get the specified stroke and height at the clutch pedal.

(Clutch Pedal Stroke: (5.12 - 5.51 in) Clutch Pedal Height: (7.56 in) to the floor)

3. Tighten locknut

4. Turn the adjusting bolt in until it contacts the clutch pedal

5. Turn the adjusting bolt in an additional 3/4 to 1 turn.

6. Tighten locknut.

7. Loosen locknut and the clutch interlock switch.

8. Fully depress the clutch pedal.

9. Release the clutch pedal 15 - 20 mm (0.59 - 0.79 in) from the fully depressed position and hold it there. Adjust the position of the clutch interlock switch so that the engine will start with the clutch pedal in this position.

10. Tighten locknut.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
aren't they supposed to be self adjusting?
 

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"The clutch is self-adjusting to compensate for wear. If there is no clearance between the master cylinder piston and push rod, the release bearing is held against the diaphragm spring, which can result in clutch slippage or other clutch problems."

The clutch pedal can be missadjusted or worn. The fluid can be contaminated or insufficient. The hydraulic seals could be damaged. The transmission oil could be the wrong level, the wrong type, or the wrong SAE number. A synchro ring could be worn or damaged.

A friend had one spring go on his Civic clutch. I never heard that happen to anyone else. Hope you find the problem without too much hassle.
 

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Did the original poster ever solve the problem. I have the same issue, where it will grind, and basically wont go into first unless you are <5mph. I tried adjusting the clutch as someone mentioned above, but that didnt do anything.

I'm sure it doesnt have anything to do with the release of the clutch or adjustment, because all the other gears go in and out smoothly, even 2nd.

Fluctuating the engine rpm and trying to get it into gear also doesnt do anything. When pushing the Gear shifter up, I can feel the grinding, and the grinding rate is related to the car's speed.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Wow! I started this post 4 years ago! :shock: Basically the transmission had worked itself out of calibration. It wasn't a clutch thing. I found it costed less to replace the entire transmission from http://www.car-part.com then it would have been to have it repaired/rebuilt. The dealer wanted about $2k to do the work, but I bouth the tranny for $600 and they put it in for a good price.
 

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Most likely It was a wear / failure with 1st gear synchro. In a Honda it requires the gear set to be replaced as an assembly. But $2,000 :!: :x :evil:

IMO more like 1/2 of that. Still expensive. :( And you've also got the difficult choice of clutch replacement while the tranny's is out, several hunderd dollars in additional parts.

You need to get your calculator out and do some compairson shopping.

HTH! :)
 

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Thanks, I guess I will just have to live with the grinding issue. Since all other gears are fine, I dont want to get another transmission. I miss my Geo, were a transmission only costs like $200, & installation only took like 2 hours. :cry:
 

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Unfortunately your synchro problem isn't going to get better, only worse. If is is only 1st synchro then it shouldnt effect the other gears.

If you don't have Genuine Honda MTF then it would be worthwhile to change it soon. If for no other reason to help extend the service life of the other synchros. And _sometimes_ other oils can bring a pending problem to the surface sooner. Read: Honda MTF _may_ bring some improvement. About $40 parts and labor anywhere.

But _now_ is the time to begin shopping for a repair, while its not urgent. A used transmission can be the low cost leader with good long term results. You'll need to find a shop that isn't "scared" of hybrids and recognizes that like your Geo Metro an Insight tranny swap isn't rocket science.

Happy shopping :!: :)

HTH! :)
 

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what type of fluid was used when replaced? i have found if you try synthetic mtf(amsoil 5w30) on high milage tranny's it will cause it to grind. i switched back to conventional mtf(honda 5w30) with a little lucas(for engines) and like magic no more grinding! i experienced this with my civic and insight.
 

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The previous owner said they replaced the MTF, but I dont know with what. I know I can put Honda MTF in there, but I was wondering about GM Synchromesh. I heard it helps grinding issues in more worn transmissions, where as Honda MTF is good for tranmissions that are already good. Is this true?

But since the Fluids arent that expensive, I might just try the synchomesh and see if it helps smooth it out. If it doesnt help, or makes it worse, I'll just drain it and put Honda MTF. Any harm in putting synchromesh in there for a little while?
 

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i believe that GM Synchromesh is synthetic? double check this but if it is i recommend convntional with a little lucas(for engines). like i said previously i have gone throu this before. if conventional doesn't fix it then it needs replaced or rebuilt.
 

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Did the original poster ever solve the problem. I have the same issue, where it will grind, and basically wont go into first unless you are <5mph. I tried adjusting the clutch as someone mentioned above, but that didnt do anything.

I'm sure it doesnt have anything to do with the release of the clutch or adjustment, because all the other gears go in and out smoothly, even 2nd.

Fluctuating the engine rpm and trying to get it into gear also doesnt do anything. When pushing the Gear shifter up, I can feel the grinding, and the grinding rate is related to the car's speed.
Mine does the same thing and occasionally into 2nd, so I'm assuming that it's the synchro. I'm just living with it and it is not getting worse. Eventually, I'll replace the whole transmission.
 

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I don't get why anyone would want to downshift to 1st while in motion on a car with such poor synchro design.
 

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ratio spreads and syncho life in non-highway use

I don't get why anyone would want to downshift to 1st while in motion on a car with such poor synchro design.
Occasional necessities of urban driving is how. I've been doing alot of simulating a MT's ratios in my '86 Civic Si by using only 1st, 3rd and 5th over the past few months (the Insight's first three ratios line up well with my Civic's 1st, 3rd and 5th gears). While it usually works alright (especially if I wind it out a bit more than normal in 1st before shifting to 3rd / "2nd") and can actually make mild acceleration smoother, sometimes I really do need my Civic's 2nd gear after 3rd / "2nd". Double-clutching to get 1st from 15mph or so would certainly require that an Insight be plenty rev-happy to allow very quick double-clutching from its 2nd gear. The alternative is to bog the engine, which I assume is an area IMA thrives in, extending a relatively massive torque boost down low (although the relative lack of back-EMF down there would make things a little tougher for the IMA system). I gather the IMA's low-end torque boosting is what allows the Insight MT to get away with its wide initial ratio spreads at all.

I'm starting to get the impression that Insight synchro issues aren't so much from bad engineering or speed-shifts into 2nd as from folks trying to jam the shifter the whole way from 3rd down to 2nd, and especially from 2nd the whole way down to 1st without double-clutching. The main reason I back off from simulating Insight gearing in my Civic is increasingly to preserve the synchos, to get away from the extra difficulty of the serious double-clutching sometimes required to deal smoothly with CRX HF / Insight MT low-speed wide ratio spreads in the non-highway conditions that are the bulk of my driving. I've been double-clutching as standard shifting procedure for over a decade now, but starting to really wish there was an Insight S with normal, evenly-spaced ratios as non-highway use with Insight MT ratios demands serious double-clutching when downshifting and just isn't as graceful overall in non-highway driving. I'm even considering the CVT because of the ratios vs. commute reality mismatch in my case, but then the Insight's hyper-efficient uniqueness as the only manual-equipped hybrid available, with a special lean-burn super-mode included with the MT, takes a major hit.

Regards,
Roger
 

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Occasional necessities of urban driving is how. I've been doing alot of simulating a MT's ratios in my '86 Civic Si by using only 1st, 3rd and 5th over the past few months (the Insight's first three ratios line up well with my Civic's 1st, 3rd and 5th gears).
Honda actually has a TSB for their manual transmissions where they tell the dealers to instruct the customers not to skip gears because the synchros can't take it. They specifically reference 6 speed transmissions, but it comes up in the Insight TSBs. I'm not sure it applies, but FYI.

SKIP SHIFTING IS BRUTAL ON SYNCHRONIZERS
HONDA SERVICE NEWS
Reference Number(s): HSN0106-01, Date of Issue: January 1, 2006
SERVICE INFORMATION
Gear ratios in 6-speed manual trannies are spaced close together so you can keep the engine speed in its
optimum range for max power and acceleration. Shifting to the next higher or lower gear in a close-ratio tranny
causes small changes in engine speed.
Shifting a close-ratio tranny through its gears by the numbers puts a very small load on the synchronizers since
they only have to make small changes to the speed of the mainshaft and the clutch disc.
Some drivers, though, like to skip shift so they dont have to work the clutch pedal and shift lever as much. They
like to accelerate in 1st gear, then pop it into 3rd gear, then into 5th or 6th. Skip shifting, though, is really brutal
on synchronizers; it puts a higher demand on them than they were designed to take. Skip shifting can cause
premature synchronizer wear that can cause the gears to grind when you shift up or down.
If youve got a vehicle in your shop for repeated damage to the synchronizers, go for a test-drive with your
service customer to see if he or she is guilty of skip shifting. If thats the case, remind him or her skip shifting
can be an expensive habit to break. Any repairs due to skip shifting may be reviewed and debited by your
DPSM.
 
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