Honda Insight Forum banner

121 - 139 of 139 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
113 Posts
Discussion Starter #121
New reconditioning - The Plan

Using all my previous experience, I am preparing for my next reconditioning.

I have 4 spare (used) HCH2 subpacks to my disposal, which is a blessing!
All the cells of the spare subpacks are good. And they have been reconditioned with the same plan as below, which I will apply to my IMA pack as well.

Remove IMA pack and setup the "reconditioning table", subpacks, chargers, etc. Let them rest for 1 day before doing anything.

1. Diagnosis: Read each individual cell voltage and identify outliers.
2. Discharge per module to 1V/cell at 1A (if outlier present I might adjust this to avoid reversal of the weaker cell)
3. Deep discharge per cell to 0,4V at 0,4A.
4. Charge per module at 3A to full
5. Use regenerative discharge and swapping subpacks to do 1 cycle per subpack at 3A. Any weaker cells identified at step 1 will get 2 more cycles individually.

On 2 of the subpacks in my car I have replaced sick cells with Insight cells. Those subpacks will be replaced.

I do not have an IMA light. So I do not expect to find any cell that is really dead or can not be helped with reconditioning. But this remains to be seen.

I am excited!
 

·
vote 4 mawah
Joined
·
275 Posts
Paddow 09 reconditioning - 06 hch2 - 2008 pack

I just pulled my strongest pack from the hch2 yesterday. I've been getting recals all winter
and the car has been lighting the IMA and CEL for a month or two now.
Long story short - at full SOC I measure 175 volts. I didn't check readings after recal but suspect it's around 170 or so.

After pulling the pack I removed the junction board and took stick pair readings
stick pair # - volt
01 - 16.05
02 - 15.98
03 - 16.05
04 - 16.03
05 - 15.91
06 - 15,89

07 - 15.98
08 - 16.01
09 - 15.96
10 - 15.93
11 - 16.04
 

·
vote 4 mawah
Joined
·
275 Posts
09 reconditioning - 06 hch2 - 2007 pack

Both my xp machine and GC01 are offliine ATM and I've been using
a meanwell 20-350 constant current PS to soak the stick pairs of my spare 2007 pack
The original 2006 pack has been sitting in the corner for several years.

I see a couple issues with 3 or 4 stick pairs. The two most important as it appears to me
at this point of my understanding is 3 or 4 stick pairs will top out and 16.xx volts where the
rest of the stick pairs top out at 17.xx volts.
I did the soak twice on the good stick pairs and three times on the - turds - as s keith likes to call them lol
I did not discharge the pack yet thoughout this entire month of feb soaking that pack.
I soaked the 3 or 4 turds for 2 to 3 days on the third attempts and they still topped out in the 16.xx volt range.

The second issue is the rate of self discharge. To the best of my knowledge, without getting the logs I finished the soak charging in late Feb 2019 and a few days ago the pack reading was at 145.xx volts
I was not surprised by the self discharge reading since I had already seen it in each stick pair as I soaked them for the second time and third in the turd cases.

I hope to get my GC01 reset to the defualts for the hch2 profile
( something weird happened to the GC01 and the labview computer between the time I used them last and when I went to hookup this 2007 pack for a 3 cycle deep discharge
reconditioning ) I also need to solder in a new cap on the computer mobo. The onboard video is not working and I found a leaking cap next to the video PCIe slot, which I'm thinking at this point is the reason I get no video from that mobo.
I no longer have any old regular PCI video cards to to throw at the issue to double check.

I'll be double checking the the self discharge rate of the 2008 pack I pulled out the car yesterday in a few days and will post self discharge rates if paddow is ok with that.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
113 Posts
Discussion Starter #124 (Edited)
Hi Wills,

Yes, feel free to post your data, it's always interesting.

I am not sure if soaking will fix anything. It just balances a stick pair.

The stick pair voltages you posted do show some variations. But hard to tell for me. When I pull the pack for a diagnosis, I disassemble and I measure the voltage of each individual cell. Then it is very clear which cells are the problematic ones.

When I charge a stick pair to full, a cell is full at 1,445V - 1,45V. So a full stick pair is about 17,4V. If your turd stick pair tops out at 16,xx, then you probably have a completely dead cell there.

My experience is that mild self-discharge can be helped with deep discharging and cycling. High SD can not be helped and the cell or stick pair has to be replaced.
 

·
vote 4 mawah
Joined
·
275 Posts
2009 recondition

I haven't fully disassembled a pack yet and gotten to the cell level. I have a few loose stick pairs that I tinker with occasionally, and this is my first time charging a pack one stick pair at a time.
I've done a bit of stick pair discharging / cycling, but I haven't recorded any data or done any real load calculations on the discharge side with stick pairs.

Now that I have some data using the meanwell 20-350 I'll add a meanwell 35-700 to the mix and compare results.

Since I don't have immediate access to the Genesis GC01 - labview datalogging system
I've had to rethink the cars pack rotation process.

I'll have to order them, but I'll also be adding a meanwell 100-350 and a 100-500 or two to the stable in due time.

And thanks for sharing your setup and data.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
113 Posts
Discussion Starter #126 (Edited)
The meanwell are constant current power supplies. Right?
To do stick pair level reconditioning I would use chargers/dischargers. Like the ones I am using, and maybe more powerful would be better as Steve says. How do you intend to discharge a stick pair in a controlled way to a certain voltage?

From your posts I understand that you have 1 pack in the car and 2 spare packs. And they are all old. Which means you most likely have high SD cells. And it is likely that some of those cells are beyond the stage of deterioration that can be helped with reconditioning. I don't know, I am just assuming.

If I were you, I would use the stick pairs from the 2 available packs to make 1 good pack. Maybe you can do a stick pair level SD test to sort out the good and the bad stick pairs to use in your pack. And some cycling seems to me beneficial.

When cells have been lying around for a long time unused, they are obviously totally discharged. My experience says (and I don't know if this is correct, but this is my observation), that the healthy cells sit at around 0,6 V. The bad cells sit at around 1,1-1,2V. Resting voltage. Maybe this can help you with the diagnosis when measuring the resting voltage of stick pairs. I personally prefer doing this at the cell level as it is much more clear.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
113 Posts
Discussion Starter #127 (Edited)
Reconditioning July 2019

Finally I got around to do my next reconditioning.

I first discharged the pack in the car with electric driving until force charge started. This will minimize the time of my first step.

I pulled the pack, disassembled and measured the RV of each cell.
I am replacing 2 modules. So I don't do anything with modules 1 and 6.

I immediately know the health of all my cells. No surprises.
I already know that all my cells are good. This is why I am a big supporter of cell level work.

Steps:
Diagnostic Resting voltage reading of each cell.
Discharge per Module to 1V/cell @ 1A
Deep discharge per cell to 0,4V @ 0,4A
Charge per Module at 3A Auto to dV cut off
1 cycle per Module to 1V/cell or 12V @ 5A using regenerative discharge and by swapping Modules.
Final charge per Module at 3A to full
Install in the car
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
113 Posts
Discussion Starter #128 (Edited)
First interesting observation.
The Modules were discharged in the car until 4 bars and forced charge start. So 50% SOC.

The resting voltage of the cells was 1,27x V.
The first discharge per module to 12V, still pulled out 4500 mAh.
I did not expect so much.

Using regenerative discharge to cycle subpacks is really great!
Super efficient.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
113 Posts
Discussion Starter #129
The rock star did it again!
Modules 1 and 6 are replaced with compatible HCH2 modules.
The pack is reconditioned at the cell level.
Back in the car working beautifully. Like new!!

I did this all in exactly 3 days. And I did sleep at night.

Plus, I can easily give a 2 year guarantee on my pack at this current condition.
I am super happy.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
113 Posts
Discussion Starter #131
So, a little update. A few months after the last reconditioning.
The pack works as it should. No IMA light and proper functioning. And with normal load, no recals.
When I use A/C however... the capacity is not enough. It goes into recals.
If I turn off the A/C when it gets low, let it recharge and turn it back on, it is fine.

The new (used) cells I put as replacements are from a 2006-2008 HCH. Mine are from 2009. Theoretically they should be the same. But now I doubt it.
During my last reconditioning, I fully tested and reconditioned the pack at the cell level. It should function better than this. So, I suspect the cells are not exactly compatible.

If I could get somewhere 2009-2011 cells I would give it another go.

Anyway, I am tired of this sh1t now. I had a wonderful 10 years with this car. And 300.000 km. Time for a change.
I spoke with the dealer. About a month ago I did a test drive with a Civic Type R from 2016. 2l turbo with 310 HP. And I fell in love. I am gonna get it.

This might be my last post.
I give my warmest regards to this community.
 

·
vote 4 mawah
Joined
·
275 Posts
Sorry to hear you may not return here even after upgrading your HCH2 to a HCR.
I too have noticed changes in my HCH2's behavior since my last pack switch over. In the car presently is the original pack that came with the car new in late 2005 the 2006 HCH2 without nav. It has worked flawlessly (almost) since I installed 7 months ago. I used my wifes old XP PC that I kept around and had labview already installed. I read the GC01 manual and reset the charger and fiddled with the halogens in the discharger to it switched on again during test mode. Than I ran the original pack through precharge with a 3 cycle deep discharge routine. The first charge discharge was fuggly the labview graphs were ugly. The next two charge discharge cycles were decent and I installed in the car,
Initially, the pack behaved in a like new condition with SOC holding steady in the middle of the SOC dash gauge.
As the weather started getting hot in the middle or near the end of the summer, I noticed the pack would not charge when it was warm from sitting. But if I turned on the A/C it would start charging. Go Figure! I'm not a fan of using the A/C with such small packs with the IMA system tuned in Sport mode. (Sport mode is just my take on how my HCH2 behaves ever since the cars last dealer service a month before my IMA coded with pack deterioration).
In the last two weeks I've noticed my pack is beginning to get recalls again both one negative and one positive within the 1 mile of driving while having to punch it to get out on the main road than going uphill. It usually wouldn't recall yet
when turning in the other direction on the main road and going downhill.

I've been doing my best to limit full assist when I notice the assist gauge is pegged. That is the one change that gave away to problem with the IMA after it's last dealer service. Because up until that service the assist gauge never went above half the bars showing, no matter what tricks I tried to use to get more assist from the IMA.

I attribute this to the class action suit in California by HCH2 customers who said they could not get the EPA 44mpg from their hybrids and how Honda USA dealt with the aftermath of that suit. I called Honda USA for help after my IMA coded and was told I must have a short in the car somewhere. And after years of haggling with the Honda proprietary IMA and watching as Honda retires one hybrid after another, I've lost faith in the company and it's published goals of a certain percentage of alternative fuel vehicles by 2030.
Not that Honda couldn't meet that goal if they really wanted to. But it seems they are just not commented to building and servicing hybrids/fuel cell/natural gas vehicles. like they used to.
And the A B C D dealer service isn't cheap. And if your dealer service was anything like the kind of service I got from the dealer, just saying, I had to return the 02 civic and the 06 HCH2 serveral times each for overfill for a simple oil change. Not to mention all the other times service and parts screwed up. And the owner of the dealership didn't want to know about any of it.



The 08 (manufacture date)pack from an 09 civic has been resting since I removed it.
I'm crossing my fingers behind my back that I'll be able to squeeze by this winter using that pack after I run it through a 3 cycle charge discharge routine with Mike D's lifesaving GC01 system.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
113 Posts
Discussion Starter #133
Sorry to hear you may not return here even after upgrading your HCH2 to a HCR.
I too have noticed changes in my HCH2's behavior since my last pack switch over. In the car presently is the original pack that came with the car new in late 2005 the 2006 HCH2 without nav. It has worked flawlessly (almost) since I installed 7 months ago. I used my wifes old XP PC that I kept around and had labview already installed. I read the GC01 manual and reset the charger and fiddled with the halogens in the discharger to it switched on again during test mode. Than I ran the original pack through precharge with a 3 cycle deep discharge routine. The first charge discharge was fuggly the labview graphs were ugly. The next two charge discharge cycles were decent and I installed in the car,
Initially, the pack behaved in a like new condition with SOC holding steady in the middle of the SOC dash gauge.
Thank you Wills for your kind words.

I am not ready yet to pay the € 30k for the Type R I want, so I will have to do a little longer with my HCH2.
Lately I notice more recalls. Especially when on a longer trip with hills.. it is quite bad. No IMA light.

Your post made me think. Maybe if I do another reconditioning and I cycle the cells a few more times the performance might improve...? Who knows. Last time I did a deep discharge on the cell level and 1 cycle per whole subpack.
I wish I had access to 2009-2011 subpacks. Then I am sure I could get my pack to work much better.
 

·
vote 4 mawah
Joined
·
275 Posts
I didn't want to post anything earlier about my experience with stick level reconditioning because I don't really know much about it yet and what mistakes I most likely made using the Meanwell LPC-20-350
AC-DC Single output LED driver Constant Current (CC); Output 0.35A at 9-48Vdc; cable output
Meanwell LPC 20-350 LED Driver
And the LPC 35-700 LED Driver that Mike D uses in the " GCO1 grid charger, you may have read some about here at IC " .
Long story short, after I'd soak charged the stick pairs on one of my packs, deep discharged them, than soak charged them again, my volt readings for the pack where strange when I hooked it back up to the GC01 charger/discharger. 200 volts, which I'd never seen a pack with that high a voltage before. The GCO1 and Labview showed this pack to be VERY weak, with strange looking graphs, and I fear I may have ruined the whole pack.

The highest Voltage I'd seen previously was 191 volts on the strongest pack and 190 volts on the other two packs. And at that voltage, 190 volts, the self discharge rate was very high and fast down to about 185 volts.

I"m letting that pack rest as long as I possibly can, crossing my fingers in the hope that the next time I go to use it the GC01 grid charger will automatically bring it back to a reasonable state again.

I've had decent results this spring and summer with the cars original pack that I had let sit in the corner of the basement for 2 years with just a single 3 cycle deep discharge using the GC01 and letting it do it's thing on the pack. But I'd setup the cycling the way Mike D recommended I setup a 3 cycle deep discharge routine 4 years ago. 4 years ago was when MikeD decided to move on to newer electrical challenges and new cars to improve upon if I recall correctly "iirc"...

I have three packs that are all getting older and weaker with time. But I'm still not confident enough to even try breaking the packs apart and trying to match stronger stick pairs? together.

I have to agree that the frustration level can get high when the packs just don't seem to have enough juice to power the hybrids in the way we've been accustomed to from driving the cars with newer stronger packs that lasted for many care free years.

Being realistic about how long a pack is going to last before it starts to recal again, after a grid charge, is daunting.
I'm always crossing my fingers when I switch in another of my 3 packs at how long it is going to hold up, this time, especially in the winter months.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
113 Posts
Discussion Starter #135
I have three packs that are all getting older and weaker with time. But I'm still not confident enough to even try breaking the packs apart and trying to match stronger stick pairs? together.

I have to agree that the frustration level can get high when the packs just don't seem to have enough juice to power the hybrids in the way we've been accustomed to from driving the cars with newer stronger packs that lasted for many care free years.

Being realistic about how long a pack is going to last before it starts to recal again, after a grid charge, is daunting.
I'm always crossing my fingers when I switch in another of my 3 packs at how long it is going to hold up, this time, especially in the winter months.
First time I took my pack out of the car and took it apart completely I took pictures of every single step. Every connector, every set of bolts before unscrewing them, and I took a picture of the rear of the modules, printed the picture and noted all the positive and negative poles. So, when I put it back together I knew exactly what goes where. But yeah, I do not want to encourage you if you don't feel comfortable.

As an engineer I don't like to guess / hope / or pray about the condition of my pack. This is why I like the cell level work. I know my cells are good. It is just now I have 2 subpacks from 2006 in my 2009 IMA. And they are not totally compatible. Although on paper they have the same specs.
If I could find 2009-2011 cells and If I do a more thorough reconditioning, I can give my pack another year or two maybe. In Holland it is impossible to find used packs. They all go back to the dealers.

I have also thought of another solution. If I separate the cells of 1 2006 subpack. And I replace 1 cell from each 2009 module with a 2006 cell, this will balance the pack. But this is a crazy amount of trouble.

The thing is, even if a pack is old, when I know all the cells are compatible and healthy, the pack will obviously not have a strong capacity, but it will function properly.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
113 Posts
Discussion Starter #136
Aaaaaaand... I got an IMA light. Lol.
I am pulling the pack next week. Diagnose the cells and see what I can do about it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
113 Posts
Discussion Starter #137
So, it took me about a month before I found time / opportunity to pull the pack. It got really bad. I would have constant recals and constant IMA light. I had never seen my pack so bad. haha. Sometimes it didn't even charge out of negative recal. It was like the car was giving up on the pack. "Not worth my attention" haha

Anyway, I pulled the pack today. The two replacement modules from a 2006 model.. It was not the compatibility the problem. Out of the 24 cells, 6 have high SD. Useless.
Good news is there is no mystery.
I have checked my old modules that I had taken out of the car which had some insight cells replacements. I found they are good, except one cell which is a bit weak. I will do a very deep discharge on that cell + cycle it 4 times, hoping it will come back to glory.

The rest of my modules look good. I will give them one cycle.
All looking very optimistic. It should not take more than 48 hours.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
113 Posts
Discussion Starter #138 (Edited)
The pack is back in the car and it works.
This should give me another 6 months or so, if cell 1.11 is willing. That is the only doubtful cell. It is one of the insight replacement cells. I deep discharged it down to 0,1V and then gave it 3 full cycles. I cycled all the subpacks 2 times. So, cell 1.11 got in total 5 cycles.

If it gives me another 6 months, I will have the Civic Type R by then and I will never worry about batteries again. I will be thinking more about turbo boost and good quality tires. haha
If it starts acting funny in a few weeks, I will replace that cell.

EDIT: I deserve a beer tonight.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
113 Posts
Discussion Starter #139
Update: It has been now 2 weeks. The pack is working properly. No recals, steady capacity, normal charge / discharge behavior.
So, the insight cells replacements are working very well in my pack now that they got some proper exercise.
 
121 - 139 of 139 Posts
Top