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Help! Car ran but will not crank now.

1444 Views 43 Replies 8 Participants Last post by  mudder
Hello everyone, a few days ago I was on my way to vacation when my 2006 5 spd had the battery light come on briefly, then the IMA light flashed a few times before staying on for a few miles, then the battery light flashed again and the car started driving weird, I pulled over at a crossroads in rural NC where I turned off the car to check under the hood to make sure nothing looked weird. Everything under the hood looked good so I started the car and drove about 20 feet where the car sputtered and died. One of the relays in the IMA battery was clicking like crazy when the car was off, I've attached a photo of my pointing on that relay. I figured the IMA died despite some of the symptoms not lining up, I disconnected the IMA via the 2 connectors in the battery and reset the IMA by pulling the 30a fuse under the hood. The car started on the 12v starter and ran for about 30 seconds before stalling out. After that nothing I could do would get the car to crank. Waited 4 hours for a tow home (thanks AAA) and continued about on my vacation with another car.

Getting back home to work on the car I jumped the OBD 2 port and got the following codes flashed at me:
EPS: 22 and 23
ABS: 61 and 81
IMA light was steadily lit on the dash but did not flash any codes.

Used my code reader and got a P0A64 and P1430 stored codes but the light was not on while driving.

Looking on this forum the EPS and ABS codes seem to me to all relate to 12v issues and wheel sensor issues that might have occurred in the past and the code reader stored codes also all seem to be unrelated but could just be from when I was unplugging and plugging the 2 connectors into the controller.

In trying to do some diagnosis, the immobilizer seems to work (green light goes off when trying to start). I charged/discharged/charged/discharged/and charged the IMA with a grid charger over a few days, reset the IMA with the 30a fuse to no avail, and also disconnected/reconnected the battery to no avail. After doing some more looking on here I checked the grounds, the one near the trans mount looks good but the 2 next to the airbox were pretty corroded which might be an issue?

I should note the car had a coolant leak along the water housing at the end of the head which I fixed recently and the car ran great for about an hour losing no coolant before encountering the above issues. I've tried to wrap my head around this for a few days but I just can't figure it out and information I found looking into the P1430 code looks way over my head.

Any help would be greatly appreciated! Thank you!

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Discussion Starter · #21 ·
Hey everyone, here is a video where you can hear the buzzing from the ECU. I have checked all of the 12v starting system as detailed in the shop manual starting section except the ECU and the starter cut relay which I will be testing momentarily. Let me know if something sounds off with this. Thanks!

ECU Buzzing Video
 

· Linsight Designer
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I (typically) have good hearing, am listening on good speakers, and yet I don't hear anything out of place in your video.

If you want to remove the ECM as a culprit:
-Turn the IMA switch off (to prevent IMA start)
-Remove the starter cut relay
-Place a jumper between the two wires the relay switches

With that, the ECM can no longer prevent the starter from starting when you hold the key down. If the starter still doesn't crank once you've done the above, then it's purely a "power is not getting to starter" issue (or the starter is broken).

DO NOT TURN THE IMA SWITCH BACK ON WITH THE STARTER CUT RELAY BYPASSED! If you do this and the IMA tries to start the engine in parallel with the backup starter, you will destroy your backup starter.
 

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There is nothing in the ECU capable of buzzing. Are you referring to the beeping sound? Can you take a photo of the place where the buzzing you hear is coming from? You can use a tube as a stethoscope to help find the source.
 

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Discussion Starter · #24 ·
Great suggestion! Just bypassed the starter cut relay with this little homemade bypass tool, thankfully the starter cranked. So it seems like it's something in the ECM is bad. If that's the case could someone point me to where I can get one, hopefully with the immobilizer already bypassed?
 

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Discussion Starter · #27 ·
Just jumped the connector on the clutch pedal switch, still nothing unfortunately. And sondair I have not done that yet but I guess the next step will be for me to access the ECM area.
 

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The next thing I would verify your clutch switch. Should be:
-shorted when clutch pedal pressed to floor, and;
-open when clutch pedal not pressed.
This is actually step 6 under the symptom "Engine does not start (does not crank)" in the Symptom Troubleshooting Index on page 4-3 of the Engine Electrical section of the first edition of the 2000-2006 Honda Insight Service Manual.

That step directs the mechanic to page 11-255 of the same manual which is a typo. The clutch pedal switch troubleshooting instructions are on page 11-225-226 of that edition of the manual.

Just jumped the connector on the clutch pedal switch, still nothing unfortunately. <snip> I guess the next step will be for me to access the ECM area.
That still leaves all the wiring between the switch and the ECM and the switch and ground as suspect.

I would not assume it is the ECM until you've followed the above instructions which start at the ECM and work out to rule out not only switch issues, but wiring issues too.
 

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Discussion Starter · #29 ·
Thank you! I need to buy the physical version of the book but I've been going off of the digital version I downloaded from this site. I went through that troubleshooting index but there are no page numbers so I cannot find the switch troubleshooting instructions. Any ideas on where to get what would be great. Thanks!
 

· Linsight Designer
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Here's my version of the G1 Insight service manual.

If you haven't used github before, here's how I recommend browsing:
1: Open the link above.
2: Click the green button (top right-middle) that says "<> Code".
3: A drop down menu will appear. Click the option that says "Download ZIP".
4: Unzip the file.
5: Peruse the files. Much better than a printed copy IMO.
 

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As others have suggested, this sounds like a weak, dying 12 V issue. Take the 12V to an auto parts store and get it load tested. The replacement 12 V will start the car. How old is the current 12V battery?
 

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Discussion Starter · #32 ·
Thank you mudder, I will start going through that version and going through the diagnostics.
Joule, I suppose I should get the battery tested but it was manufactured 12/21 and I got it around 6 months ago so it seems relatively new.
 

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Gen1 Insights are notoriously tough on 12V batteries. The date sticker on the battery is only relevant to G1 Insight owners for warranty claim purposes. In other words don’t assume that because the battery is fairly “new” it is good. Load testing could save you a lot of time chasing gremlins. Just sayin’.
 

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Discussion Starter · #34 ·
Hello everyone, just got the battery load tested, rated at 500 CCA and tested at 580 CCA so that should be good, school and work have kept me busy lately but I'm going to try and start checking the wiring on the ECM.
 

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Discussion Starter · #35 ·
Alright, another update for the books. I realize most people didn't think the issue was caused by the ECM but there was a cheap one nearby so I went ahead and got a key made for that ECM and threw it in my car hoping for a miracle. Unfortunately nothing changed with that.

Couple things I found interesting, one was that I also tried my old key (different ECM/immobilizer) with the new one and it did NOT cause the immobilizer key light to illuminate on the dash. Another interesting thing was the existing ECM in my car was from a junkyard (lots of paint pen on the screws and labeling it).

I will get back on going through the manual and I guess moving to checking the ECM diagram since I already checked everything on the starting troubleshooting diagram.

Thanks everone!
 

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Where are you located? Maybe someone close by can give some personal assistance.
 

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Discussion Starter · #37 ·
I'm located in Harrisburg NC, just NE of Charlotte.

I've been pondering and my next area to tackle will be the ignition/steering column area. Sometimes the dash does not completely shut off after removing the key and sometimes the start relay in the back will keep clicking once the battery is removed.Possibly a bad ignition switch?
 

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Discussion Starter · #38 ·
Interesting development, after messing around with the car for awhile I pulled a fuse in the under hood box for the ECM/IMA and put it in after 15 ish seconds. Then I flipped the big IMA switch back on (had been off for around a week since I last messed with it to check the clutch switch etc. and the IMA system cranked the engine for a second before stopping.

I don't know what to make of this but hopefully someone will have an idea. Also if anyone is nearby I would be thrilled to have a little help. I'll even pay gas money :LOL:
 

· Linsight Designer
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Based on what you've reported thus far, I propose the following:
Your IMA battery isn't in great shape... pulling the IMA fuse cleared the BCM's non-volatile memory, and the pack isn't so far gone that the BCM immediately realized it wasn't able to IMA start the car. Then, as soon as IMA start initiated, the BCM saw the voltage drop/imbalance/etc and said "wait, I can't handle this right now", and then aborted the IMA start sequence.

But before we run down the IMA rabbit hole, we need to figure out the engine issue first. It's important to know that the entire IMA system isn't required for the gas engine to run. The only caveat to this is that the 12 volt battery will not charge if the IMA system is entirely disabled. What this means is that as long as you can keep the 12 volt battery charged, the engine will (should) run regardless of the IMA state. So that's why I'm saying we should focus on getting the engine running first.

So you had the 12 volt battery load tested (great!)...
...but did you place the negative terminal on the chassis, and the positive terminal on the starter terminal? If not, then you only tested the actual battery, and not the various high current cabling that completes the starter circuit. These cables are notoriously bad in this car... probably because an inline 3 cylinder engine has a 60 degree 'gap' between each power stroke... which literally vibrates the motor - and everything attached to it - to death. This includes the ground straps, and - to a lesser extent - the positive cable that routes from the 12 volt positive directly to the starter solenoid.

Next, is the starter bypass relay working? See my previous post #22 in this thread?
 

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the IMA system cranked the engine for a second
This tells us the ECM works reasonably well, and the immobilizer (if your car has one) is no longer the problem here. Also, a possible bad connection of one or more pins in the ECM connectors is not the problem either as I stated before.

You could try to buy a simple grid charger for the IMA battery and charge the IMA battery for 24 hours. Does the car start then?
If no, there is a problem with the ECM and/or engine.
If yes, there is a problem with the 12V backup starter circuitry.

In the start of this thread people talked about a bad ground in the 12V circuits. It slowly begins to smell like it is indeed a problem like that. Check out all 'bad ground' topics on this site again. I'm not familiar with the Insight car, so I have no specific knowledge about 0V grounds and 12V wiring and/or particular weak spots that might exist in your car. Read carefully what real owners of this type of car have found about it. A bad ground problem they solved in their car is quite possibly the same problem you have in your car.

One thing we do know: you are probably gonna to tackle this problem(y).
 
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