Honda Insight Forum banner

1 - 20 of 23 Posts

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,658 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
I recently acquired a 2000 CVT. At first, I noticed the engine juddering when cold, in drive at a standstill. I put this down to the engine not being warmed up, straining against the automatic transmission. Does this happen on other people's CVT's?

I took it to be looked at a Honda dealer, who did not solve the problem. I am not sure they investigated it very thoroughly as they charged me for an hours labour which included a twelve point winter confidence check. Hmmm.

When I took the car out today the problem was much worse and did not go away when the engine warmed up. Worse still, when I came to the end of my journey and put the car in park, the RPMs were fluctuating wildly between 500rpm (almost stalling) and 1500rpm.

IMA is operating normally. What could be the problem? Grateful for some help.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
700 Posts
And there is no "Check Engine Light"? Did the service folks do a diagnostic check? If so, did they get any trouble codes? I find it hard to believe that something as bad as you describe would not be associated with a code if the source is the ICE.

Does the problem go away in Park, or Neutral?

Have you done anything to the car recently?
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
4,942 Posts
Idle surging in a Honda system is usually too much air. The PCM idle control system plays chase its tail in trying to stabilize idle. Look for a vacuum leak, too tight a throttle cable, or a sticky IAC (idle air control) valve (sometimes cleanable).

A judder in the transmission is potentially a much more serious problem. A fluid change or "flush" (3 changes immediately back-to-back after short engine run up in between) _may_ be the solution.

Your really going to have to "isolate" the problem further before any transatlantic, blindfolded and by remote control diagnosis can be made <wiping sweat off brow>. <g>

HTH! :)
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,658 Posts
Discussion Starter #4
Thanks for the replies. I should also add that I had virtually no acceleration for the first ten feet after each stop, even with my foot on the floor. What does that relate to? I had a couple of near miss rear-end collisions pulling out of junctions.

I will be putting together a service list for the dealer. Thanks.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,658 Posts
Discussion Starter #5
Oh dear, things have got worse. The speedometer is now very erratic, such as dropping to zero at least every 30 seconds - of course this kills the instaneous MPG and lifetime MPG (which I reset recently). I am going to have a long list for the dealer to hopefully sort out.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
700 Posts
Check your ground cables.

But if the speedo input comes from the transmission (probably, I don't know with the CVT), I worry that the CVT is the source, and it is doing something very bad. Has the dealer checked it yet?
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,658 Posts
Discussion Starter #7
Thanks Holicow now I am worried! I put the speedo problem down to a dodgy connection where the importer must have done the km/h - mph conversion.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
348 Posts
Doesn't sound too joyful here......
I hope to think that there is a pretty simple solution to this problem.

-Have you checked under the bonnet to see anything unusual (ie. cables, pressure-hoses)?
-Have you changed your petrol-station recently (poor quality/clogged-up filter)?

Try this if everything else fails:
-Disconnect the 12V battery and leave it off for a while (30 secs). It may reset itself :wink:

Good luck, from mainland Europe :D
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
96 Posts
I have the same problem as you, citrus. I've posted about it here many times but never got any responses. My jitteryness happens whenever regen kicks in, only in cold weather. Today it was very warm (about 78*) so it didn't happen, but it has all through october.

Fortunately, my problem isn't as sever as yours. Keep us updated on your progress as I'd like to have something to tell the dealer (they keep saying nothing is wrong when I ask them to check it out).

BTW, I found I get better acceleration if I don't floor it right away, but rather lightly get it going then floor it. Also, I'm having no odometer issues.

-BT
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,658 Posts
Discussion Starter #10
Thanks for the replies. My CVT is booked in at the dealer first thing Monday the 8th. I have arranged to give them a list of work - please see below. Grateful for comments - any omissions?

2000 Honda Insight, W928 YNB

Work List


1. Fit Louvre to front bumper
Part supplied

2. Oil & Oil Filter Change
Please flush engine and use only 2 litres (to prevent overfill) of 0W-20 oil if available, Part No. H0823199951HA, otherwise use 0W-30 or at worst 5W-30. Take care not to strip oil drain plug thread (soft magnesium pan).

3. Drain and Replace Automatic Transmission Fluid

4. Replace three spark plugs
Please note letter marking (A-D) and torque setting (23Nm)

5. Fix speedometer
Fault probably due to poor km/h to mph conversion

6. Clean or Replace EGR Valve

7. Idle problems – Please check IAC valve is not sticking, check petrol filter is not clogged, check for vacuum leak in Idle Control and tightness of throttle cable.

8. Carry out any other work necessary until engine and transmission are running smoothly with no idle or pick up problems. Thanks!
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
4,942 Posts
2. Engine "flushes" are rarely beneficial. Given the very small amount of engine oil the Insight uses _if_ the oil change is severely overdue it might be helpful to flush by draining the oil, removing, draining and replacing the oil filter then refilling with a couple of quarts of oil. Then a short engine run-up followed by a regular oil change. Expect to pay double for the work, but only 1 charge for an oil filter.


3. With the greater severity of your CVT's juddering I would want this "diagnosed" _before_ _any_ other work was performed. A transmission fluid change or flush _may_ be sufficient to restore correct CVT operation if the fluid is in poor condition. And its a bit of a gamble. Severely neglected fluid will also have caused increased overall internal wear, so how close you _may_ be to needing a complete transmission overhaul (remanufactured replacement) can be a difficult judgment call.


5. Depending on what's wrong with the speedometer it too may be an expensive repair. I'd get a diagnosis and report of repair cost before proceeding. the km/h/ MPH buttons are integrated into the assembly. I don't believe that they are serviceable. In some instances the parts can be disassembled and a cleaning of the switch contacts may be a reasonably long term fix. But there are no guarantees.

7. The fuel filter is integrated into the pump assembly. Its a somewhat time consuming part to remove for inspection. Basically unless you've been contaminated with something like someone dumping a handful of crushed tree leaves in the tank it will last the life of the car. _IF_ there are symptoms that indicate insufficient fuel flow, like good idle but loss of power above 2000 RPM then a fuel pressure test (much easier) will indicate whether or not the filter should be inspected.


Unless your willing to take on the diagnosis risk and limit the shop's work to what you specify I'd take a different approach.

Let them make the diagnosis and recommend the repair(s). _IF_ their suggested repairs are out of line with what seems reasonable get a second opinion before proceeding. Have the potentially most expensive problems diagnosed first (transmission followed by the speedometer) so you can make a better overall economic decision.

HTH! :)
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,658 Posts
Discussion Starter #12
Thanks for the reply John. I have previously taken the car into the dealership requesting a fix and they just looked at the car for an hour with no result. That is why I am specifying the work to do, which will hopefully cure/ease the current problems. Point by point I should say:

2. I have asked for an engine flush as the car currently has fully synthetic oil which I do not want to get mixed with the mineral based 0W-20.

3. Apart from the poor pick up and snatchy transmission, I do not believe (and hope) there is a specific problem with the CVT. I think that the juddering is engine related. However, replacing the ATF certainly shouldn't do any harm.

5. Unfortunately there is no km/h-mph button on the dashboard of Japanese Insights (would make life a lot easier), so the fault is likely to be a poor conversion fitting.

7. Agree with you on the petrol filter, so I'll scrub that one to avoid the expense.

Thanks.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
4,942 Posts
Hi Citrus Smoothie,

(I really miss the Silver Streaker though <g>)

Point by point replies:

3. Engine juddering should be related to a misfire condition. Of which the OBDII system should detect it and set a code (at least back on this side of the pond). Just what a Euro spec mixed as a Japanese conversion import will show under those conditions is beyond me.
For Spark plugs to be at fault the wear would have to be severe, well in excess of the 105K mileage replacement interval. However, if something is amiss in the combustion process the spark plugs should be able to tell the tale. "Reading" spark plugs is a complex skill which doesn't briefly translate to the written word. Try a web search.

Removal for reading? Sure. Replacement? Maybe. Another possible money saver here. :)

5. If the converter is a "standard" adapter that is commonly used over there then turn them loose. However, if this is something unusual then you need to briefly educate them as to where, and what the device is. If the car uses the standard OBDII connector its a simple task to plug in with a scan tool and watch the speed sensor output. If it's output is stable while the speedometer is erratic then the signal is breaking down somewhere in between. Maybe it's the conversion thing-a-ma-jig.


2 & 7. Mixing dino to synthetic has no downside that I can imagine. If you were going the other way and wanting the better protection of full synthetic then a flush would gain you a less diluted oil change. But it's still only a slight advantage. Maintaining the proper oil change interval over the life of the car IMO would be a more significant factor. Save your money here!

HTH! :)

If you request a diagnosis and report cost of repairs and you got nothing, then back here in the States in general you pay nothing. Unless the costs of the tests that must be done to perform the diagnosis were agreed to in advance. An extreme example would be: If they want to perform a code check when you know the check engine light hasn't been on then refuse the test, nothing will be found.

An hour is a long time labor charge for a first step "blindfolded" diagnosis. Until the car is road tested and the basic visual inspections performed, e.g. transmission fluid level, condition, odor etc. Then something more specific should become apparent that is needed to further isolate the problem before the specific cost to repair can be determined. E.g. the road test seems to show engine irregularities. Next step, check the basic input values to the engine computer (a type of code check).

Obviously I could go on, but I hope you get the gist of what I am trying to communicate. As a customer you need to understand their system of diagnosis and the charges that are associated with it. And understand what you are effectively "buying". If the shop suggest a test that seems out of line then have them explain the reasons. An average driver isn't as technically advanced as is sometimes required for diagnostic procedures and a "good" shop is happy to help you understand the _needed_ expenses.

A good shop should always have an If, Then, Else presentation as the diagnosis narrows. At first there are many "Ifs" with as many possible "Then, Else's". Its this first step that will carry a blanket labor charge.

If your experiencing a clear and readily reproducible problem, then the blanket charge must reveal a clear path toward repairs (which still _may_ require a few different branches), else I would think that the charge should be refused. Basically it demonstrates that they are in over their head. A good shop will waive the fee and return your car.

If the repair shop you have chosen doesn't use this basic approach to diagnosis, repair and customer communication, then you really need to look for a better shop, else (ouch, $$$ <VBG>).

HTH! :)
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,658 Posts
Discussion Starter #14
Thanks for the reply John. Unfortunately businesses in the UK are not as customer focussed as the USA - which is our own fault for not being more demanding. I just got my CVT Insight back from the dealership.

I am now £748 or @ $1,350 lighter following the work the dealership done. My CVT Insight has improved, it's not perfect, but better; most of the problems seem to be resolved, time will tell. The biggest expenses were the EGR valve - £152/$275 and three ignition coils for £204/$369. They found a cracked ignition coil and the other two with damaged insulators when replacing the spark plugs.

I tried to be a bit more American in my approach with the dealership and left instructions to only use two litres of 0W-20 oil to prevent overfill. They used three litres of oil, then struggled to find the remaining 0.8 litres. The engine was overfilled unsurprisingly. Why can't mechanics grasp the simple concept of minimum and maximum? :evil:

Grateful if someone could let me know how the parts prices compare to the USA. I have also just had to order a wing mirror for the Citrus Insight at a cost of £180/$325 (probably broken off by a tearabout teenager); with hindsight, if it is cheaper in the USA, it may have been sensible to ask one of you guys to send one from the USA. Doh.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,658 Posts
Discussion Starter #15
B*ll**ks! The problems with my CVT are still there. The speedometer is still fluctuating wildly (I have even seen it flash up to 74mph at standstill). The engine is still excessively rough when at standstill in Drive and I am still having idling problems - the engine actually stalled yesterday which is surely very difficult to do in a CVT.

You can see the parts that have been replaced in my previous posts. I am sure that it is just one or two components that must be failing and replacing those would solve the problems. Could it all stem from a faulty speedometer? Does anyone know if or how the speedometer is linked to the engine management?

Grateful for remote diagnosis. If I can't get it sorted, then this might be an Insight ready for electric conversion (after I have got my IMAS!).
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
4,942 Posts
A VERY difficult diagnosis without a road test. Or at least some hard data to begin forming an opinion e.g. someone has partially diagnosed the problem but has gotten to an impasse. The symptoms you describe are way too general at this point. The initial "If" list is long.

Although for it to have mostly cleared up and slowly (?) returned makes me believe something in the fuel management system.

The surging speedometer can wreck havoc with the PCM's job of fuel and ignition control. Sounds like the next step is isolate the speed sensors (VSS) output to see if the signal is good at the source. If yes then begin looking downstream for the loss. If no then you still need to verify that the sensor simply not doing what it is told before you can count is as being bad. Broken or damage driven gear(s) on the sensor itself or drive gear(s) internal to the transmission . :(

After reading your post more carefully a surging speedometer at a stop should further limit the source of the problem to the electrics, not anything mechanical (gears).

A scan tool will be a necessity. Most signal tests can be done with an advanced DVOM but additional parameters that would help point the way to the next step will only be available with a scan tool.


The "good" shops I have written about in here aren't plentiful back in the States either. You've gotta hunt for them.

I suspect the same over there else most of Britain would be walking much more. <VBG>

Sorry, I don't know where else to take this.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,658 Posts
Discussion Starter #17
I have made some progress with a bit of self diagnosis. :)

I used the CVT for two long drives on Thursday and Friday. On the Thursday the car behaved itself with no speedo or erratic engine problems. However on Friday when it was raining, the problems returned. At first I thought water was getting into the electrics somewhere, as each time it rained the problems would return. It was only later in the afternoon that I realised that it was the windscreen wipers that directly affected the speedometer (bringing it down to 0mph on each wipe) which then affects the engine/transmission. Conversely when using the wipers at 0mph it shows a higher reading on the speedometer and creates the erratic engine idling etc.

Why hadn't I noticed the correlation before!?! Just goes to show how rainy it is in the UK because before Thursday I had been using the wipers on each drive.....

So there is clearly an electrical fault (hopefully fixable) where operation of the wipers affects the speedometer. I was hoping it would be a simple case of arcing / dubious connection in the fuse box. My hopes were buoyed when I found that the wiper fuse (20A) and the FI-ECU fuse (7.5A) are next to each other in the dashboard fuse box (very awkward to get to by the way). I pulled both fuses but could not find any dubious wiring or connections. My next stop will be an auto-electrical shop.

I am very happy that I have found the cause (now I just need a fix). It is great to have a smooth running CVT (when it is not raining!).

Assuming the above can be fixed (grateful for any electrical suggestions), I have only a few niggles to iron out - water in headlight, straightening steering wheel and rough idling when cold in drive at standstill. Getting there....
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
4,942 Posts
Sorry to hear of your continuing problems.

Yes, you have done some of the most important part of the diagnosis. Isolate the "problem". Of which the driver often has the best hope of doing so. It's these "little", specific and *reproducible* clues that help point the way.

It sounds like we're back to square one again. <sigh>

Has the "Converter" that is used for your import been tested as I've previously urged? Its a critical PCM input that must be reliably scratched off the list _before_ I'd spend any money searching for something more obscure. And it may very well be that during its installation something was poorly spliced, *especially a shared ground point*. This component will not be listed in the factory ETM so just where it is and how it was installed makes it the number one suspect!

A simple "diagnosis" would be to remove this item and see if the juddering is gone.

Become distracted with _possible_ other issues and you'll likely end up with multiple other suspicious "looking" parts that could be a cause of your symptoms (like the Ignition coils), but the final solution ends up being something else.

A _VERY_ expensive method of repair!

I write this not to put salt in your wounds, but as a caution to other readers. "Self" diagnosis then taking it to a repair shop and telling them to do specific things is a high risk method. You've gotta shop for a good mechanic. It _will_ cost you less in the long run. NG diagnosis and repairs extremely limited. After the fact sharing problems and repair is often helpful to establish a starting point for diagnosis, but there are no certainties.

HTH! :)
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,658 Posts
Discussion Starter #19
Thanks again for your reply John. I should state that it is definitely the operation of the windscreen wipers that affects the speeodmeter and ECU. It is reproducible and now the cause of the problem has been identified, I don't feel that we are at square one again.

I agree that the Km/h to mph convertor is likely to be the number one suspect. I note your point on shared ground point - especially as the fuses/wiring for the two are next to each other, this is a good possibility.

I will try and find auto-electricians that have knowledge of km/h to mph convertors and at least I will be able to explain to them the symptoms to put them on the right path.

Agree that self diagnosis and repair can be an expensive route, but the ignition coils needed replacing and most of the other work was routine servicing (give or take). It is just very unfortunate that none of the Honda dealership mechanics who have carried out work on any of my Insights over the last two years do not appear to have ever worked on an Insight before, let alone have the skills to carry out diagnostic work on them; hence the work lists, problem sharing and self-diagnosis!

Perhaps Honda should have specialist roving super-mechanics to deal with problems at a higher level than oil changes?
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
830 Posts
I do not know if it will help but have you checked the ground cables. Engine/ground , transmission/ground and battery/ground
 
1 - 20 of 23 Posts
Top