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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Hello, it's been a while!

So first are all the current blink codes, I coudn't really make heads or tails of where I should be looking in the decoding excel spreadsheets, there were multiple results for the same blink code, which was confusing to me. Can someone who knows what they are doing match the exact reasons for each of the blink codes? Much appreciated

-IMA Blink codes...
5 long 9 short
7 long 4 short
6 short
2 short
4 short

-EPS Blink codes...
2 long
3 short

-CEL Blink codes...
6 long 9 short

-IMA C&C displays a persistant P1165 and an intermittant P0134

-Exhaust is fully catless, I have verified with exhaust completely off in sections. (done by some previous owner)

Issues I've noticed...

-Lean burn does not work in weather hotter than 70*F ambient. Car will stay locked into stoich 14.7 or whatever

-when in lean burn car does not have enough power to mainain speed, even on a decent grade downhill. Even maxing out throttle % in leanburn (32%) doesn't hold my speed in any condition.

-Low throttle % acceleration even out of leanburn is sluggish compared to other insights I've driven. Recently reconfirmed this by driving a 2001 citrus who happens to live a block away from where I work. His car has some intense bucking issues at cruise, but accelerates significantly faster at low throttle (and without IMA) than my car.

-the low power is getting worse, when I first came to michigan in July 2019 I could tank average 79-82mpg and accelerate ok, still slow, but it was there, and I could stay in lean most of the time. now best I can get is 60mpg, leanburn is sporadic, and acceleration is abysmal without IMA (I have a clutch circuit switch that I can disable the electric assist with) and I really struggle up hills at ANY throttle position. Load reaches 90+ and even in the 4000+ rpm range car barely accelerates.

Things I've done to try and help issues (Over time)...

-new properly indexed spark plugs
-new fully cleaned, flow matched injectors
-new Primary (I've tried 4 different OEM NGK sensors) AND secondary O2 sensors
-new proper year ECM reflashed and matched to my key at the dealership
-traced all wiring from the ECM to the O2 sensors, they have continuity and normal resistance
-new EGR
-cleaned EGR plate
-checked for brake drag, with car up in the air and coastdown tests (my car coasts down better than several other insights I've tried the head to head rolls with)
-tried different tire pressures with brand new tires (full tank averages 47mpg at 40psi, 52mpg at 50psi, 55mpg at 60psi, 58mpg at 70psi, and 60mpg at 80psi)
-valvelash set exactly at Intake 0.008 and Exhaust 0.009
-intake filter clear as is the entire intake manifold
-engine oil sent to Blackstone Labs and everything normal every time
-I use Mobil 1 synthetic 0w-20 advanced fuel economy with the oil level exactly in the middle of the dipstick notches
-Honda mtf
-alignment checked by machine, and also verified 0 toe by measuring tape
-checked TDC, camshaft alignment, and timing
-no background IMA charging, I constantly display amperage flow on the IMA C&C display
-sound system amplifier is connected directly to the 12V power out on the battery pack (i forget what its called specifically)
I'm sure I'm forgetting a few things...

the discussion part is this... I've narrowed my hypothesis of what the cause of my issues is down to one thing... the car being catless. The lack of backpressure and exhaust scavanging is causing a lack of power especially at low throttle %, and messing with the ECMs interpretation of the O2 sensors. So is this even possible? I know many cars are tuned, both intake and software to work with a certain level of backpressure, so it makes sense to me. And many times with performance cars, a larger, less restrictive exhaust (usually catless) loses WTQ and WHP in the low RPM ranges, and necessitating a software reflash to recalibrate everything and prevent CELs and rich/lean conditions...etc

So I'm thinking about getting a new, catted manifold, with brace to replace my catless one.

Thank you for your time, thoughts, and expertise
 

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Hello, it's been a while!

So first are all the current blink codes, I coudn't really make heads or tails of where I should be looking in the decoding excel spreadsheets, there were multiple results for the same blink code, which was confusing to me. Can someone who knows what they are doing match the exact reasons for each of the blink codes? Much appreciated

-IMA Blink codes...
5 long 9 short
7 long 4 short
6 short
2 short
4 short

-EPS Blink codes...
2 long
3 short

-CEL Blink codes...
6 long 9 short

-IMA C&C displays a persistant P1165 and an intermittant P1134

-Exhaust is fully catless, I have verified with exhaust completely off in sections. (done by some previous owner)

Issues I've noticed...

-Lean burn does not work in weather hotter than 70*F ambient. Car will stay locked into stoich 14.7 or whatever

-when in lean burn car does not have enough power to mainain speed, even on a decent grade downhill. Even maxing out throttle % in leanburn (32%) doesn't hold my speed in any condition.

-Low throttle % acceleration even out of leanburn is sluggish compared to other insights I've driven. Recently reconfirmed this by driving a 2001 citrus who happens to live a block away from where I work. His car has some intense bucking issues at cruise, but accelerates significantly faster at low throttle (and without IMA) than my car.

-the low power is getting worse, when I first came to michigan in July 2019 I could tank average 79-82mpg and accelerate ok, still slow, but it was there, and I could stay in lean most of the time. now best I can get is 60mpg, leanburn is sporadic, and acceleration is abysmal without IMA (I have a clutch circuit switch that I can disable the electric assist with) and I really struggle up hills at ANY throttle position. Load reaches 90+ and even in the 4000+ rpm range car barely accelerates. To give a comparison, 10amp commanded motor assist (with C&C) is easily equal to the acceleration of 20% TPS engine only.

Things I've done to try and help issues (Over time)...

-new properly indexed spark plugs
-new fully cleaned, flow matched injectors
-new Primary (I've tried 4 different OEM NGK sensors) AND secondary O2 sensors
-new proper year ECM reflashed and matched to my key at the dealership
-traced all wiring from the ECM to the O2 sensors, they have continuity and normal resistance
-new EGR
-cleaned EGR plate
-checked for brake drag, with car up in the air and coastdown tests (my car coasts down better than several other insights I've tried the head to head rolls with)
-tried different tire pressures with brand new tires (full tank averages 47mpg at 40psi, 52mpg at 50psi, 55mpg at 60psi, 58mpg at 70psi, and 60mpg at 80psi)
-valvelash set exactly at Intake 0.008 and Exhaust 0.009
-intake filter clear as is the entire intake manifold
-engine oil sent to Blackstone Labs and everything normal every time
-I use Mobil 1 synthetic 0w-20 advanced fuel economy with the oil level exactly in the middle of the dipstick notches
-Honda mtf
-alignment checked by machine, and also verified 0 toe by measuring tape
-checked TDC, camshaft alignment, and timing
-no background IMA charging, I constantly display amperage flow on the IMA C&C display
-sound system amplifier is connected directly to the 12V power out on the battery pack (i forget what its called specifically)
I'm sure I'm forgetting a few things...

the discussion part is this... I've narrowed my hypothesis of what the cause of my issues is down to one thing... the car being catless. The lack of backpressure and exhaust scavanging is causing a lack of power especially at low throttle %, and messing with the ECMs interpretation of the O2 sensors. So is this even possible? I know many cars are tuned, both intake and software to work with a certain level of backpressure, so it makes sense to me. And many times with performance cars, a larger, less restrictive exhaust (usually catless) loses WTQ and WHP in the low RPM ranges, and necessitating a software reflash to recalibrate everything and prevent CELs and rich/lean conditions...etc

So I'm thinking about getting a new, catted manifold, with brace to replace my catless one.

Thank you for your time, thoughts, and expertise
I'm having the same problem with my citrus I just put an engine in. Literally the same exact symptoms. I'd be interested in what ends up being the solution for us.

[Edit]: I'd like to note I have driven dozens of catless insights and have never experienced these symptoms. I don't think it's related to the CAT.
 

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Hi
What size are your tyres and make and pattern ?
When your engine is at running temprature and you stop the car and it is on tickover 9% TPS and in neutral what is the Lod % ?
Do you have all undertrays on the car ?
How many miles has it done ?
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Hi
What size are your tyres and make and pattern ?

OEMs, sorry I didn't specify, I forget people run different tires

When your engine is at running temprature and you stop the car and it is on tickover 9% TPS and in neutral what is the Lod % ?

Yes to the 9%, I'll check the LOD at idle next time it's up to temp.

Do you have all undertrays on the car ? yes, aluminum undertray, and bottom grill mostly covered, has slits in it I open up in the summer, and close one at a time depending on how difficult the car is to get up to operating temp.

How many miles has it done ? 229,000mi
 

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Hi
bottom grill mostly covered, has slits in it I open up in the summer, and close one at a time depending on how difficult the car is to get up to operating temp

Can you put a photo up of this ?

yes, aluminum undertray

What about the two plastic undertrays that are each side under the seat area that are about half the length of the car ?

I have just re greased the idler (tensioner) pulley bearing on the water pump drive belt on our Insight it has done 177,643 Uk miles when I removed the seal the bearing was dry some people had also had problems with this putting extra load on the engine and in turn loosing leanburn
 

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Can someone who knows what they are doing match the exact reasons for each of the blink codes?
The codes don't tell you what the problem is. 😭 They tell you on which circuit an anomaly was found. It is up to the mechanic to then perform troubleshooting to isolate the problem. 🤔 Fortunately the Service Manual has detailed troubleshooting steps for many codes.🤓

You should acquire the Honda Insight Service Manual and Electrical Troubleshooting Manual. 🔧 The service manual will tell you how to translate the blink code into a diagnostic code. Then look up and perform the diagnostic procedure for each of those codes.

If you post the result of that troubleshooting, someone here will then be able to help with a sanity check 🧠 before you spend a lot of money 💰 on parts.

Hope this helps! 😄
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Hi
Forgot to mention make sure battery pack fan is off and battery pack at 75% SOC also when checking Lod %
23-24 Lod at 204 ECT

A few days ago I drove the car in 60-65*F ambient temps (morning drive) and the car drove fantastically. Very atypical, but exactly how I want it to drive (and how it should) great power and meaningful acceleration at low throttle inputs, able to get into lean burn very easily, and keep mph without dropping out of leanburn... I averaged something like 125mpg during this 35 mile round trip.

BUT! Yesterday in 80*F weather (did the same today) the engine began sputtering for a few seconds after a hot start, stalled several times, which seemed to go away shortly after driving it, with only a brief stumble as I get going.

SO! What engine/ECM/fuel efficiency aspect is most effected by ambient temperature?
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
That's good to know Philip

New information... car sputters, dies, breaks up for about 10 seconds after a hot start, but only when the car sits for a few minutes. Using the auto stop and restart feature doesn't make the car sputter.

So this takes priority to be fixed, I cant have the car dying on me during my shift (delivery) or not be reliable transportation (my only car)

What can you all think of that would cause this?

I was thinking that the fuel rail isn't staying pressurized when hot, is this a fuel pump issue, some type of fuel rail valve, pressure regulator...etc

Thanks for your thoughts.
 

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New information... car sputters, dies, breaks up for about 10 seconds after a hot start, but only when the car sits for a few minutes.
When I am on road trips (driving for long distances at highway speeds) I have noticed that if I let the car autostop for 10+ minutes or so, when it restarts it idles at a quite low RPM (where it does not run well) for a few seconds; then the idle RPM rises.

I have not noticed this lately, but i think it was more pronounced when cold. Also, I tend to perform the idle learn procedure after a battery disconnect nowadays.

I do not know if this is a thing in my other Insight or if others experience this.

You could try performing the idle learn procedure and see if that helps. It probably won't, or it will return after anywhere from 20 miles to several tanks later.

But I have re-read your first post and recall that you have a lot of codes. Get yourself a service manual and work through those codes. One or more may be contributing to this issue. Really, I have found that there are no shortcuts here - the car seems to be designed to tolerate a lot of suboptimal performance of various systems before throwing codes, so taking care of those - peeling the onion - is necessary to be able to keep on top of the car.
 
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