Honda Insight Forum banner
41 - 60 of 119 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
144 Posts
I would think a leaky manifold gasket would set a check engine light and or cause idle hunting...

I replaced my secondary O2 sensor over the weekend and got lucky to be able to remove it fairly easily. After my 8 mile test drive performance was much improved. The car felt peppier off the line and the herky jerky was reduced by about 90%. I can still feel it slightly if I am looking for it, but under my normal driving style it's a non-issue.

I'll report more as I put on more miles. So far best $17 I've spent in some time.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
946 Posts
Discussion Starter · #44 ·
the herky jerky was reduced by about 90%. I can still feel it slightly if I am looking for it, but under my normal driving style it's a non-issue.
Exactly the same for me. 90% better, but still as little by of herky jerky some times. I think that I will try my old injectors that I cleaned in my ultrasonic bath and seafoam solution.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
144 Posts
When our Civic CAT came apart and bashed up the O2 sensor and some of the substrate ended up in the muffler I was able to clean up the O2 sensor and use one of those spark plug oil fouler extensions and put the O2 sensor up and eliminate the p0420 code as a temp fix. Ended up replacing the CAT w/ OEM in the end, but it was a good stop gap.

So far I am jazzed about the results I've gotten from my $17 O2 sensor for my Insight. I am hoping the my MPG's will go back up w/ my new found peppiness. I was about to down the car and send out my injectors for a deep cleaning. Probably still should.

Thanks for the advice. This situation is exactly the reason I love these forums. Someone else's trial's and tribulations paid off for us all. :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
144 Posts
Update: I recently experienced an IMA light and got a check engine light for both the IMA and a slow response secondary 02 sensor. I was able to gain back battery power by resetting the SOC and I've ordered a grid charger in hopes to continue to stave off the IMA light for some time.

I did get the code back for the cheapo secondary 02 sensor and have since put my original 02 sensor back in. The new (cheap) sensor seemed to make a difference for a few hundred miles or so, but has since started causing the herky jerky again... :(

I will likely purchase the proper (expensive) 02 sensor in the future - however I have yet to get a code from my original sensor...even though I am getting the herky jerky ride...

Thanks,
Mark
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
24 Posts
Fixed herky-jerky, but...

I'm still getting unburned fuel smell blowing in with the heat, on first moving out in first gear, and in the air outside after I park. I cleaned the EGR plate, which certainly needed it but that didn't help the herky much. Then I replaced the EGR valve with a new one for the 1999 Accord 4 cyl. ($108 with coupon and tax at Advance Auto). It runs fine with no herky now. I also put about 1/3 can of Seafoam in a full tank of gas.
What really surprised me is that the battery (dealer replacement about 4 years old), which had been in a coma, is working almost normally, but with more recals than normal. Only had to reset by pulling the 12v cable once in 10 days. After resetting almost daily for about 6 weeks, only to have the IMA light back in 5-10 miles, I quit resetting it for about a month, thinking only a grid charger would revive it. I've been putting that off.
But how long does it take the control unit to realize that the engine can breath again? MPG still hovers around 50, instead of the 55 or so I would expect in the winter. Obviously gas is being wasted somehow. It has been ten days and 160 miles since the valve replacement.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
16 Posts
@Gearloose, have you had the fuel lines checked? Esp. bc of the unburned gas smell when you first start and are going slow. Mine rusted out at 215000 miles and I had very similar issues.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
671 Posts
In the fuel line a common leak is at the junction where the fuel pipe from the rear joins the rubber pipe to the engine at the top of the firewall. Many cars I have seen have had that junction cut out and had a longer rubber line attached directly to the steel pipe. I don't know why that is such a rust point but it is and I always spray it with grease to slow it down.

You might also want to check the crush washers at the end of the fuel rail and also, the rubber boots and O rings of the fuel injectors.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,316 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
24 Posts
It was obvious once I knew where to look. Indeed, my leak was very similar to the one in the Gas Line Leak thread, except on the line closer to the driver's side. There was rust on that line from the plastic clip on the wall to the rubber line going forward past the 90 degree bend (plus a little on the other line). The leak seemed to be coming from right where the forward hose joined the steel line. There were leak marks on the square aluminum cross rail under that spot. I had bought a foot of 1/4" fuel injector hose and already had a little tubing cutter, but that solution didn't seem to apply. I puzzled it out and ended up pulling the rubber hose off the steel line, sanding the steel from the end to the bend with 100 grit sandpaper for about ten minutes, sprayed the lines and the clip with WD-40, and shoved the line on the hose as close to the bend as it would go, and put on a little stainless worm gear clamp pretty tightly as close to the end of the rubber as feasible, past the guesstimated location of the leak. The clamp was scavenged from a spare CO2 line on my homebrewed beer kegging equipment. I started up and ran the car for a few minutes, no apparent leak or smell. At least it's not as bad as it was, if not entirely fixed. If I had known what to use, I might have gone out for some kind of Permatex sealing goop. Anyway, I did nothing irreversible, it's better than it was, no missing or leftover parts. Time for a homebrew. Thanks for your guidance. It has about 180,500 miles on it now.
 

·
Premium Member
2001 5S "Turbo"
Joined
·
11,602 Posts
I would double clamp it because you used WD40 for installing the hose.
Fuel injector hoses should be installed DRY.
My opinion.

HTH
Willie
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
24 Posts
I reused the original hose, just shoved it further back on the sanded steel line. There was still some rust in low spots, I thought I should coat it with something.
I just got back from a 25 mile drive. There is a leak somewhere there still. Wiggling everything around may have started one. I'll look at it in daylight and add a clamp or two tomorrow. MPG does seem to have started improving. I'm overdue for an inspection and don't want to give them anything to quibble about.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
28 Posts
Skuits: To everyone out there with the Herky Jerky! I had the same issue many years ago. Believe it or not. What fixed this problem was to replace the 12v Battery. After much research. I have found out IMA only needs to detect 9v to start our engine! Any one got a smoke detector? I can't start my car! Anyway. Anyone who knows a 6 cell 12v lead acid battery providing only 10 volts has a bad cell! Here is where the issue comes in. When you stop the car the momentum inside the battery sets forward. The opposite happens while accelerating hard. Causing the "loose" cell to function as it should. Well when accelerating lightly the cell will be moving from front to center to side to side! and will only be dysfunctional when the cell is perfectly upright! here comes the tricky part! How does that make the car jerk?. 12v State of charge is very important on the load of the DC converter. Thus also effecting our MPG. When the car warms up. The DC converter will also be in a similar shape if the continuous Cycle on off on off on off hits for the 12v battery having a "loose" cell. Now what happens when the 144v Battery is on the verge of overheating? from it being turned on and off consistently for the past 5 miles of light accel. while you accelerate lightly and get great mileage one second, then start coasting. the 12v battery will jump down to 10v. then the dc converter kicks on, slowing the car down slightly. Then when the Battery overheats. What shuts off first? the DC converter or the Battery? My money is on the Converter! Allowing full Converted Power back into the Drive Train Pushing the car forward slightly. Then Shutting off completely causing a drag higher than when the DC charge was in state. Here is where the really big issue happens. The DC converter is being tricked to turn on because your battery is still consistently moving between 10v and 12v while the IMA is off. as soon as the State of charge is noticed. the IMA Safety of 15 seconds is bypassed and will Kick to get the voltage to an area where it will not damage anything. However, we are in a state of an overheated 144v Battery. So the kick is instant! 12v is recognized. Meanwhile in an overheated state. 12v Battery malfunctions and the DC converter kicks on again. pulling a charge from the NiMH. BCM detects its overheating and the entire cycle happens all over again. This can happen many times in one second! Thus I believe the reason for the sporadic HERKY JERKYNESS. It is never consistent. It is all determined by the location of that bad cell! I would say at this point. anyone with this problem. Take the battery out and have it tested while in someones arms. while its being tested have that person move the battery slightly to see if the voltage dips and comes back. NOW! This is still only a theory! This is what happened to me. A loose cell in a Battery is not uncommon. and this issue can cause Premature IMA Lights. Considering there is a Memory in our NiMH Batteries. doing this cycle will wreak havoc on the 120 Cells in the 144v Battery. If This fixes your problem! Hallelujah! If not I am sorry there is another issue with your vehicle. BTW I have done no work to my car at all. No Cat no O2 Sensor. no EGR. Nothing at all and the jerking went away.

To all my fellow Insighters I wish you luck on your mods!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,316 Posts
Interesting, how many miles are on your car? My EGR plate was completely blocked so cleaning that was part of my issue. I think yours was a unique issue with a very rare battery condition. I replaced my battery when it failed but it did not help, ultimately replacing the EGR valve fixed the issue.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,933 Posts
To everyone out there with the Herky Jerky! I had the same issue many years ago. Believe it or not. What fixed this problem was to replace the 12v Battery. After much research. I have found out IMA only needs to detect 9v to start our engine! Any one got a smoke detector?

The consensus on the forum is that a G1 won't start if the 12 volt battery is below 10.5 volts. 10.5 volts is the minimum voltage spec for some of the control modules and below that level you will start getting various MILs.

I can't start my car! Anyway. Anyone who knows a 6 cell 12v lead acid battery providing only 10 volts has a bad cell!

Or it is a perfectly good battery that needs a charge. Or the residual loads (radio memory etc) ran the battery down if parked too long.

Here is where the issue comes in. When you stop the car the momentum inside the battery sets forward. The opposite happens while accelerating hard. Causing the "loose" cell to function as it should.

I've usually found that anything "loose" in the battery just shorts the cell out; sediment, deformed plates etc. And usually charging the battery does no good in that case. The IR will allow the voltage to rise above 10 volts but the battery can't maintain the higher voltage under even light loads.

And unless you had the car instrumented to read all the variables your reasoning is conjecture. I wonder what percentage of bad 12V batteries have a "loose cell" vs: being sulphated etc?


Considering there is a Memory in our NiMH Batteries.
From:
Nickel Metal Hydride (NiMH) Handbook and Application Manual
Energizer Battery Manufacturing Inc. | 800-383-7323 (USA-CAN)
Nickel Metal Hydride Version: NiMH02.01

"Memory/Voltage Depression
Again, this is no longer a concern. The issue of "memory" or voltage depression was a concern for many designers of devices, using nickel-cadmium batteries. In some applications where nickel-cadmium batteries are routinely partially discharged, a depression in the discharge voltage profile of approximately 150 mV per battery has been reported when the discharge extends from the routinely discharged to rarely discharged zones. While the severity of this problem in nickel-cadmium batteries is open to differing interpretations, the source of the effect is generally agreed to be in the structure of the cadmium electrode. With the elimination of cadmium in the nickel-metal hydride battery, memory is no longer a concern."
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
939 Posts
From:
Nickel Metal Hydride (NiMH) Handbook and Application Manual
Energizer Battery Manufacturing Inc. | 800-383-7323 (USA-CAN)
Nickel Metal Hydride Version: NiMH02.01

"Memory/Voltage Depression
Again, this is no longer a concern. The issue of "memory" or voltage depression was a concern for many designers of devices, using nickel-cadmium batteries. In some applications where nickel-cadmium batteries are routinely partially discharged, a depression in the discharge voltage profile of approximately 150 mV per battery has been reported when the discharge extends from the routinely discharged to rarely discharged zones. While the severity of this problem in nickel-cadmium batteries is open to differing interpretations, the source of the effect is generally agreed to be in the structure of the cadmium electrode. With the elimination of cadmium in the nickel-metal hydride battery, memory is no longer a concern."
(not to stray OT but...) If this is the case, then why do people deep discharge the IMA pack? The consensus (from the way I understand it) is it restores lost capacity from the constant 20% cut off-and that produces a memory effect. (I agree that ni-cad are much more prone to memory effect though).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
28 Posts
olrowdy01: you are correct. The IMA will not allow a start situation until the voltage reaches 10.5. However when in the on position. The BCM requires at least 9v to turn on. Even with the engine off the BCM will notice a state of charge and the DC converter will turn on allowing a charge into the 12v battery regardless if the engine is on. since the 62 amps going into the battery is significant. it could take seconds to get the SOC to reach 10.5v. Many of us may not even notice the car will take longer to start! On another note. I1 uses NiMH and they are notorious for holding a Memory. As for the science behind it. I am sorry I am not as smart as you, and am unaware of the difference between Them. I am just merely stating a Possibility to fix an issue that could be present to a person whose options appear to be waning. My thoughts are to never give up hope!. We as a higher species can and will fix everything. "Never give up! Never Surrender!". As for the battery. with the Looseness of the one cell in the battery. It would be rare to be parked at a level perfect enough for it to reduce to 10v permanently. Also even if this were possible. the position of the battery would be apparent as soon as the human gets in the vehicle and displaces their weight. Although how rare even this situation is. you would have to agree the cell position while in the off position with people displacing the weight of the vehicle would be even more exponentially rare! No Offense to you. I know your smart. You know your smart! However, when it comes to a forum please somehow figure out a way where you can mention your Ideals of conjecture in a matter where it will not crush the hopes and dreams of all of us around. Lets leave the Idiosyncrasies to those who wish to indulge in the words of an Idiot. However, 90% of the fun of this information is to analyze and Figure out the possibility of it being true and coming up with your own Hypothesis and acting on it. Even if the Information turns out to be 100% False. your work and effort did not come from at least being happy doing it 80% of the time and learning something. Otherwise we would just take it to a mechanic and tell them to fix it. We are all of a curious nature and also this is the reason We love the Insight. It is unlike any other car in the world! Probably about as rare as the loose cell. On another note. Intestate Battery was used when I had the issue. some of us may know the Duralast yellow tops were at one point made by interstate. so if you have either a greentop interstate or a yellow top duralast. there is a chance of this herky jerky happening to you!

I Replaced the Spark plugs at 120k i Replaced the OEM battery at 110k noticed the Jerkyness around 140k, IMA light, Replaced under warranty the Cell Pack at 145k. replaced the 12v Battery around 150 with AC Delco. now have over 200K with a P0420 Finally present! as well as an IMA issue. I am sure this new Cell pack should have lasted more than 60K. Since the original pack lasted nearly 150K. However with the issue I had with the Jerkyness. I cannot conclude this was the cause. However, I cannot dismiss it!

One more thing to consider. If you are using a CVT. you may want to service your trans fluid. This could help. I am not sure as to why this would cause the jerkyness. However, When I was having the issue at very little accel. This did help it a tiny bit. I am assuming the Torque converter had an easier time making the transfer of power more fluid.

To conclude. I have never cleaned out my EGR. or replaced anything on the engine side of the car at all. Besides the Spark plugs, air filter, and the PCV. I am getting an Engine code for an EGR low flow now! but this is after years after my jerking issue. I am not even sure if its worth me fixing it right now. Since I am looking to do a K20Z1 Swap in the next year or so!

To all those Insighters out there. Good Luck on your mods! May the SOC be with you. lol!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,933 Posts
(not to stray OT but...) If this is the case, then why do people deep discharge the IMA pack? The consensus (from the way I understand it) is it restores lost capacity from the constant 20% cut off-and that produces a memory effect. (I agree that ni-cad are much more prone to memory effect though).
I'm more than sure that one of our battery vendors on the forum can explain all of this better than I can.

Eli explained the affect of deep discharges vs battery life very clearly in a series of posts in another thread.

With a normally operating battery I wouldn't expect that it would be discharged down to the 20% level. Even in S. Fla with it's lack of hills my battery stays in the range of 63 to 70% SOC as measured with my OBDII gage. If necessary my car depends more upon background charging of 2 to 6 amp. And it can hit 45+ amps for short periods of coasting up to a stop light.

Personally I don't deep discharge. I don't want to take the chance of cell reversal. I'm more interested in balancing the cells and in the case of my "new" Honda battery it has taken 3 grid charges to even form the battery up. Each time I grid charge it the battery runs at a higher average SOC level.

But lets be clear about what "memory effect" really is. From Memory effect - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"True memory effect

The term 'memory' came from an aerospace nickel-cadmium application in which the cells were repeatedly discharged to 25% of available capacity (plus or minus 1%) by exacting computer control, then recharged to 100% capacity without overcharge.[3] This long-term, repetitive cycle regime, with no provision for overcharge, resulted in a loss of capacity beyond the 25% discharge point. True memory cannot exist if any one of the following conditions holds:

Batteries achieve full overcharge.
Discharge is not exactly the same each cycle, within plus or minus 3%
Discharge is to less than 1.0 volt per cell.[3]

True memory effect is specific to sintered-plate nickel-cadmium cells, and is exceedingly difficult to reproduce, especially in lower ampere-hour cells. In one particular test program designed to induce the effect, none was found after more than 700 precisely-controlled charge/discharge cycles. In the program, spirally-wound one-ampere-hour cells were used. In a follow-up program, 20-ampere-hour aerospace-type cells were used on a similar test regime. Memory effects showed up after a few hundred cycles."

Looking at item two in the above list of the three "any one of the ...", there's really no way that our cars will discharge and charge the IMA battery within 3% each and every time.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,933 Posts
Even with the engine off the BCM will notice a state of charge and the DC converter will turn on allowing a charge into the 12v battery regardless if the engine is on. since the 62 amps going into the battery is significant. it could take seconds to get the SOC to reach 10.5v.
This is simply incorrect with the 12 volt battery starting at 9 volts.

But first a little background on 12 volt battery charging with the key ON and the engine not started.

Some people on the forum turn the key to the ON position (but do not start the engine) while grid charging the IMA battery. This enables the IMA battery cooling fan to run when required and to allow the dashboard SOC to be already set to 20 bars when done charging. They recommend trickle charging the 12V battery so it doesn't run down while grid charging because the car won't charge it until the engine starts.

From previous reading of the manuals;
1. The BCM does NOT control the 12 volt charging. It is concerned with the IMA battery.
2. The DC-DC converter is controlled by MCM which also requires 10.5 volts to operate as per the specs.

We've got a Mexican stand off here. The engine won't start until the battery voltage is >10.5 volts and the DC-DC converter can't charge the 12 volt battery until the MCM sees >10.5 volts and the engine running. Where is the 62 amps of charge going to come from in this case? And where did the figure of 62 amps come from?
 
41 - 60 of 119 Posts
Top