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One way or the other. I am sure your information is correct! however. I have had many occasions where the car would not start right away when i did have this issue. When I had a Multimeter to it. it once read 9.3v after letting the car sit in the on position for 1 minute it read 10.6v and I was able to start the car. If indeed the MCM is in control here how could this phenomenon be explained. I understand the MCM controls the DC-DC converter. However, I am fairly certain the MCM will not turn on till the BCM allows it to. Which is why we have to disconnect the BCM to allow the DC-DC converter to push a constant charge. and as for the 62 amps. That is the number I have from the Honda Hybrid Battery Guide as the max output. This is not to say this is what will put out when in this situation. Only a reference. and to be honest I did not think about reading the current when I had this issue. One more thing. Running a sub, the blower and with dash lights on. I was able to leave my car engine not running during a double feature drive in theater. I lost two lines on the IMA but had no problems starting. I am sure if I did not have the key into the on position my 12v battery would have been dead. 32-38ah battery. I am not attempting to discredit you. Only to inform you of my past experiences. If you have an explanation to this I am all ears. However, I think we are getting a bit off topic here from the original poster. And feel we should start another Thread on this topic and see what we come up with!
 

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Sorry guys/gals for getting way off topic but I think we are contributing something to understanding how the car's electronics operate.

I have had many occasions where the car would not start right away when i did have this issue. When I had a Multimeter to it. it once read 9.3v after letting the car sit in the on position for 1 minute it read 10.6v and I was able to start the car. If indeed the MCM is in control here how could this phenomenon be explained.

It's not unusual for a lead-acid battery to display a lower voltage while discharging; especially for several hours, compared to a few minutes after the load is removed. That wouldn't involve any charging. And while charging a battery will of course display a higher voltage vs letting it sit for a few minutes after a charge.

But I don't know why that would affect your SOC unless it was just catching up to what the IMA battery charge level really was when the engine stopped running. If the weather was cold it's possible that the IMA battery temperature changed after 3 to 6 hours and the apparent SOC was different. I've seen my IMA battery temperature go up from ~98° to ~105°F 3 or 4 hours after I had parked the car at sunset. But I don't think that change would show up on the dash SOC.


I understand the MCM controls the DC-DC converter. However, I am fairly certain the MCM will not turn on till the BCM allows it to. Which is why we have to disconnect the BCM to allow the DC-DC converter to push a constant charge.

Mike D. posted that the BCM has one wire on the "A" connector that can disable the DC-DC converter. I would guess that wire is how the BCM disables the DC-DC converter when the IMA battery goes too low in SOC percentage.

and as for the 62 amps. That is the number I have from the Honda Hybrid Battery Guide as the max output.

I'm not sure what Ni-MH document that is but since it says "output" that sounds like it wouldn't be the charge current of the 12 volt battery but rather the output current of Ni-MH IMA battery. Probably over some period of time to measure capacity, IR(?) or something.

I am sure if I did not have the key into the on position my 12v battery would have been dead. 32-38ah battery.

Not knowing how you set up the situation to leave the key in the ON position I can't duplicate getting my car to charge the 12V battery when the key is ON and engine not running or in autostop. In autostop the gas engine can restart by itself if the brake booster vacuum is out of spec or if the 12V battery voltage drops too low.

I think we are getting a bit off topic here from the original poster. And feel we should start another Thread on this topic and see what we come up with!
I agree we are definitely off topic but hopefully it was still interesting and informative to the readers. I think we pretty much covered the subject of strange battery events though. Again, sorry guys/gals.
CUL
 

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Well, back on topic!! :D
My insight recently started losing power at wider throttle and developing a bad case of bucking at almost-closed throttle, and it also had a P0172 code (too rich). It seems that on wide open throttle, the car runs so rich that the engine bogs down and won't make any power. It's actually quite scary when I drive wide open in 1st gear and can't even hit the rev limiter on flat ground!! I had cleaned the egr plate when I got the car, and checked it again, and it is not clogged. I tried swapping EGR valves and that had no effect. I replaced the upstream sensor with a Bosch 15393, and the problem persisted. I've now ordered a Bosch 13075 downstream sensor (apparently it's a viable replacement according to this post, plus I'd trust a Bosch sensor over an eBay one!), and I'll see what happens with that. Without an OBDII scanner that can read sensor voltages/values, it's difficult to figure out which sensor is malfunctioning. After having read the OP's post about the downstream sensor wreaking havoc on the engine's performance, I'm really hoping that this fixes my Insight's ailment.
 

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I'm not sure your problem is to do with the EGR system Morshu. Have you tried disconnecting the electrical plug from the EGR?

Low power at WOT and poor idling could be a plugged cat. Do you have your cat shields in place? A plugged cat is more likely if the shields are gone as the cat doesn't get hot enough to burn off the residues. The problem is exacerbated in cold climates and with short trips.

You also might want to look at the V-tec filter. If it is plugged you will probably need a cylinder head. See:

http://www.insightcentral.net/forums/problems-troubleshooting/41865-cam-cylinder-head-issues.html
 

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I'm not sure your problem is to do with the EGR system Morshu. Have you tried disconnecting the electrical plug from the EGR?

Low power at WOT and poor idling could be a plugged cat. Do you have your cat shields in place? A plugged cat is more likely if the shields are gone as the cat doesn't get hot enough to burn off the residues. The problem is exacerbated in cold climates and with short trips.

You also might want to look at the V-tec filter. If it is plugged you will probably need a cylinder head. See:

http://www.insightcentral.net/forums/problems-troubleshooting/41865-cam-cylinder-head-issues.html
I've tried disconnecting the EGR valve and the bucking goes away, but the lack of power is still prevalent. The engine idles just fine. It's only when the throttle is open wide that I have problems. The shields on the cat are intact. I do make relatively short trips but I guess I can pull the cat to see if it is clogged. I just thought that since my problem is only at wide throttle and I'm getting a code that the engine is running too rich, a sensor is most likely to blame due to incorrect fueling by the ECU. I don't know engines very well, especially Honda engines, so I'm not quite sure how to check the vtec filter. I didn't even know such a thing existed! I'll check the cat and then the vtec filter once I get that downstream o2 sensor replaced.
 

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I've tried disconnecting the EGR valve and the bucking goes away, but the lack of power is still prevalent. The engine idles just fine. It's only when the throttle is open wide that I have problems. The shields on the cat are intact. I do make relatively short trips but I guess I can pull the cat to see if it is clogged. I just thought that since my problem is only at wide throttle and I'm getting a code that the engine is running too rich, a sensor is most likely to blame due to incorrect fueling by the ECU.
When you are accelerating at a medium rate do you feel a surge in the engine power around ~2800 rpm? That would be the V-Tec system kicking in. If not then I'd check the filter first thing. Not having the V-Tec valves working could limit the top rpm the engine can reach.

It also possible that the engine is running in limp-home-mode (fairly rich to protect the engine) for some reason when at WOT.

Are you sure there aren't any other MILs or flash codes? The car is pretty good about giving error codes about the various sensors. Since the problem seems to be a non IMA problem most OBDII readers should be able to read out any error codes you have. Also check for dashboard MILs (flash codes).

When running WOT most fuel injected engines go into open loop mode and the fuel mixture isn't controlled by the O2 sensors at that time. The ECM reads the various sensors and sets the mixture according to fuel maps stored in the ECM.

Here is a good article that explains the various O2 modes that the sensors go through.

MAP Tuning Fuel System Status Logic | FlashPro Tuning
 

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There was one time. where I let the oil in my car run a bit low. when I attempted to accelerate hard. the car would violently JERK around 4000rpm. I am assuming due to insufficient oil. The VTEC Solenoid was malfunctioning. Filled it with oil and the problem went away! I am not saying low oil is the problem. However, there could be something wrong with the VTEC Solenoid. It may need a new filter gasket, or at the very least cleaned. I would check that and check connections. It's really easy to get to.

As for the O2 Sensor. If you have a 5sp I would be very weary about using anything aftermarket. The Double Cat and the 21:1 LB has very little room for tolerance. This may be causing one if not more of your problems. Also if your wondering why it wouldn't be setting off a MIL. well lets just say the o2 Sensor it self is in range, and may not be sending a malfunction to the ECM. Your computer may be trying to work out of range from the o2 Sensor. Slim! but a possibility, Or It may need more time to make sure the issue is not intermittent. You may see a MIL light within the next full tank of fuel.

Good Luck!
 

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Back from the dead!

Talonmike, so was this the final answer in your poor running LB issue?

I am ready to order a new secondary o2 sensor after reading your OP on this thread.

I have been chasing this issue like crazy.

Conventional wisdom says the secondary o2 is strictly to monitor the catalytic converter and has no say in ecu fueling or timing BUT this has been proven wrong in some Subaru's and if this was your cure then is definitely wrong.

Thanks!
 

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It's been just under 5 years since anyone responded to this thread. I'd rather use this than start a new thread. Hope it works.

My 2000 5sp has the herky jerky and loss of power. After reading this entire thread, I'm thinking I should first try just the O2 sensor. If that doesn't help, check out the cat. Does that sound about right?
 

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It's been just under 5 years since anyone responded to this thread. I'd rather use this than start a new thread. Hope it works.

My 2000 5sp has the herky jerky and loss of power. After reading this entire thread, I'm thinking I should first try just the O2 sensor. If that doesn't help, check out the cat. Does that sound about right?
Guess I should add that the only codes are P0325 and P0420
 

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Guess I should add that the only codes are P0325 and P0420
Not that this is the correct info for your situation but I had a 2000 with bad herky jerky. I did all these things then Ill tell you how stopped it.I did the clean the egr plate and paths, changed the egr valve, changed the bat pack modules, changed the ecm, changed the dc/dc converter, added extra ground straps to already good ones, replaced the fuel injectors, new plugs, new coils, swapped map sensor from another good running car, tried ethanol free fuel, had exhaust system checked for restriction, o2 sensors replaced new, I gave up until I did the battery pack bypass with the arduino. That removed all my herky jerky. I have my cars operating with arduino boards and no battery pack modules, but left the junction board connected in the car. To simplify the conversion, the arduino works with or without the pack but switch the breaker switch off. Then install the arduino board and modified harness. Only one plug to connect on the dc converter from the modified harness. I do not to this day know why the car did the herky jerky but it went away when the pack was bypassed. I use a junction board in one car and I left the pack in another car. The only plugs plugged in are from the modified harness. Battery charges and car starts with the 3 second delay.
On another note, leaving the pack in the car (breaker switch off and harness changed over) I had an event which my 12v battery went down on me. Would not turn the engine over. It wasnt dead, just too low. So I reached back, replugged the factory harness and all the other plugs, then restarted car on the juice left in the pack. Saved my noodle that day. There was sufficient energy in 12v to activate the solenoids to energize the pack to start car.
Good luck on that adventure to stop herky jerky. It cost me lots of money and unnecessary depletion of insight available parts. Any questions I will answer. I am no authority on the subject but know what is working fine for my cars.
Moon Car
 

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Not that this is the correct info for your situation but I had a 2000 with bad herky jerky. I did all these things then Ill tell you how stopped it.I did the clean the egr plate and paths, changed the egr valve, changed the bat pack modules, changed the ecm, changed the dc/dc converter, added extra ground straps to already good ones, replaced the fuel injectors, new plugs, new coils, swapped map sensor from another good running car, tried ethanol free fuel, had exhaust system checked for restriction, o2 sensors replaced new, I gave up until I did the battery pack bypass with the arduino. That removed all my herky jerky. I have my cars operating with arduino boards and no battery pack modules, but left the junction board connected in the car. To simplify the conversion, the arduino works with or without the pack but switch the breaker switch off. Then install the arduino board and modified harness. Only one plug to connect on the dc converter from the modified harness. I do not to this day know why the car did the herky jerky but it went away when the pack was bypassed. I use a junction board in one car and I left the pack in another car. The only plugs plugged in are from the modified harness. Battery charges and car starts with the 3 second delay.
On another note, leaving the pack in the car (breaker switch off and harness changed over) I had an event which my 12v battery went down on me. Would not turn the engine over. It wasnt dead, just too low. So I reached back, replugged the factory harness and all the other plugs, then restarted car on the juice left in the pack. Saved my noodle that day. There was sufficient energy in 12v to activate the solenoids to energize the pack to start car.
Good luck on that adventure to stop herky jerky. It cost me lots of money and unnecessary depletion of insight available parts. Any questions I will answer. I am no authority on the subject but know what is working fine for my cars.
Moon Car
Interesting... But I prefer to leave the battery system in. Still good to know though. Thanks.
 

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It's been just under 5 years since anyone responded to this thread. I'd rather use this than start a new thread. Hope it works.

My 2000 5sp has the herky jerky and loss of power. After reading this entire thread, I'm thinking I should first try just the O2 sensor. If that doesn't help, check out the cat. Does that sound about right?
Hi,
I had the herky jerky about five years ago, and tried replacing the O2 sensor, but it did not make any difference, so I am hoping this info will help you.

What made more difference to my car was cleaning the EGR circuit and lubing the EGR internal resistor.

Jim.
 

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^ 3-Wheeler? Don't think I've seen you around for a long time...

ama1347, try unplugging the connector to the EGR valve first, easy to do.* If the jerkies go away you'll know the problem is in the EGR system, likely needing to clean the EGR plate and/or get a replacement valve... Of course, given your codes it could very well be the O2 sensor or the cat.

That 0325 code is for the knock sensor - haven't seen many people report jerky problems and then fixing them with a knock sensor. But, the knock sensors are notorious for falling apart.

* Here's an image of the location of the EGR valve:
90336
 

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^ 3-Wheeler? Don't think I've seen you around for a long time...

ama1347, try unplugging the connector to the EGR valve first, easy to do.* If the jerkies go away you'll know the problem is in the EGR system, likely needing to clean the EGR plate and/or get a replacement valve... Of course, given your codes it could very well be the O2 sensor or the cat.

That 0325 code is for the knock sensor - haven't seen many people report jerky problems and then fixing them with a knock sensor. But, the knock sensors are notorious for falling apart.

* Here's an image of the location of the EGR valve:
Hi Eq1,

Yes it has been a long time.

Say, I notice that your 12V battery has a protrusion coming out the side!?!

Jim.
 

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Apologies for the late reply to the above comments. So many things going on and so little time.

I cleaned the EGR plate and checked the EGR valve. 12V makes it open and close. Didn't fix the problem. I'll try unplugging the valve to see if that helps anyway. Thanks.

Next, I'll look into the cat and O2 sensor. Hopefully today.
 

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Did you clean the channel/passage way from the EGR valve to the intake manifold.
 
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