[Kuma]

My Insight has some 105,000 miles on it. It was running beautifully 2 days ago. I took it to a local Honda dealership for a major tune up. I got it back and the engine power was dramatically lowered. I had to use the pedal so much more than usual for the speed that it used up the electrical boost batteries in a short time. At just over 50 mph it momentarily hesitated and sometimes surged momentarily. This was after I had the valves adjusted / oil change / radiator / trans fluid changed. My check engine light has been on for awhile (ordered a new O2 sensor during pick up) - this doesn't explain why it still ran fine with the check engine light on up until I got it back from a 60,000 mile (or 120,000 in my case) tune up. I went back to the dealer - They looked at me as if I were trying to rip them off. The mechanic took it personally - but he rechecked the valves (free of charge).

What could have been done during that servicing that could have caused this? I've never had any such symptoms before with my car. It used to be positively peppy and fully fun to drive. Now it seems like perfection has been spoiled. Does the ERG valve get disturbed during valve adjustments?

Air filter was installed - I noticed one of the clips was missing - could that have caused the sudden symptoms (amount of air pulling through engineered entrance - perhaps they have a monitor for air flow)?

I am sorry - coincidence I don't accept. What about the computer diagnostic check - does it reset the on board chip memory (does it have memory?)?

No - I've never been knowledgeable about cars.

Any mechanically inclined persons out there who has any idea what could have caused these symptoms to suddenly appear after a major tune up?

 

[joecvt]

When you brought the car back, did the mechanic check for any new codes (besides the O2 sensor code) ??? You can check for any disconnected vacuum hoses as well. How is the engine at idle speed (in terms of running rough)

JoeCVT - Just your average CVT owner

 

[Insightful Trekker]

Re: Herky jerky / some surges / low power - right after tune

My check engine light has been on for awhile (ordered a new O2 sensor during pick up) -

Does the ERG valve get disturbed during valve adjustments?

Air filter was installed - I noticed one of the clips was missing - could that have caused the sudden symptoms

I am sorry - coincidence I don't accept. What about the computer diagnostic check - does it reset the on board chip memory (does it have memory?)?

Bad O2 sensors have been _shown_ to cause CAT damage. Would be very bad news too. Bad O2 sensors fail by degree. Since you have one to install do so and _then_ pursue the remaining symptoms. NO "tune-up was / is due at 60K or 120K so little of consequence would have been "disturbed" that could cause your symptoms.

The EGR valve is not disturbed.

A filter cover clip cannot cause any symptoms and unless most are missing its of no consequence.

Reading a code on any make or model does not automatically clear the code (although its common practice to do the additional step once the code is recorded).

How did "they" know the correct index for the spark plugs :?: There are 4 different ones. Its unlikely any Honda dealer stocks 3 each of all 4 varitey. Wrong plug index :?: Incorrectly gapped plug :?:

Understanding the technical intricacies, implications and specifics of the above answers will take some effort on your part. Search the forum, check the IC Encyclopedia, and Google for the details. THEN post a follow-up question. OR put your mechanic to task for the answers :!: :shock:

IMO #1 "before" the valve adjustment was "redone" should have been a road test to confirm the problem. Without that step everything else is just guesswork (Yup :!: these answers too. )

HTH!

 

[Kuma]

No new plugs yet-on order-no probs till after the tune up

The thing is - it drove like a dream until I got it back from the "tune up". The plugs were not changed - the valves were adjusted - new oil/trans fluid and new filters/air filter - pressure checked the radiator and new fluid - reset the ABS system - cleared code - 60,000 mi maintenance.

I've never had any of the problems until I drove it home from the dealers yesterday after their work on it.

I will have the O2 sensor installed/plugs replaced in a few days.
105,000 mi and no problems until I got it back yesterday from the dealers.

Something obviously happened at the shop during the maintenance. I just don't know what could have been done to cause these symptoms.

Any ideas? - I am in for a fight at the dealers on Thurs - their chief tech is going on a check ride with me. I will be giving him some excerpts from this forum along with the web address. - engine idle 1000 - not rough. Thanks for the input.

 

[Insightful Trekker]

<sigh>

Better expand your understanding of the lingo a bit before the ride.

By the book maintenance @105K a _tune-up_ is performed (as is the first valve adjustment, unless noisey). The phrase "tune-up" virtually universally _means_ spark plugs were replaced. If you have more than 105K on the current plugs their overdue.

If your expecting to gain any useful information from such a post we can't niggle over incorrectly used common phrases. You'll need to buff up :!:

 

[kapps]

I agree, if they did the by-the-book 105k mile "tune up", the plugs were changed. If they were, I'd bet they were either the wrong type (ie Civic plugs) or incorrectly indexed. I'm not sure how much the indexing affects performance though. One other thing you could try is disconnecting the negative battery lead for a few minutes and let the ECU reset.

 

[Kuma]

reply

Yes - spark plugs were on the agenda - they just carry very few things at the dealers dealing with Insights - they had to order them - I have an appointment on Thurs for everything at once (check out ride/plugs). No Insights on the lot either - I wanted a comparison ride for the Head Tech.

The tech did a check out ride and claimed on paper that it was ok - when I talked with him - he said that he felt those same symptoms but thought they were O2 related - claimed he couldn't check on all things on the car until the O2 sensor was installed.

He didn't have an answer as to why it was running fine before I took it in - with the check engine light having been on for some time - and no problems.

Thank you for your replies - and to those who reply in the future.

 

[Willie Williford]

Where are you in Ca.

Maybe it's time to meet up with another "helpful" insighter for an evaluation and possible assistance.

Willie

 

[retepsnikrep]

Re: Herky jerky / some surges / low power - right after tune

I got it back and the engine power was dramatically lowered. I had to use the pedal so much more than usual for the speed that it used up the electrical boost batteries in a short time.

Check back brakes haven't been over tightened as well!

 

[Kuma]

Reply

The brakes being overtightened was considered when I got home - I tested by rolling the car by hand - all fine - I live in the central valley - near Modesto.

News flash - I just got back from a 40 mile test drive. No problems at all!

It drove like its old self!

The only thing I can think of is it had been sitting for 2 weeks prior to my 10 mile drive to the dealers for the tune up (on vacation). Perhaps water in the fuel line? They also washed the car as part of the service - perhaps they had wet the engine? :?

Maybe it is an intermitant problem that may rear its ugly head again in the future? I will be driving it about 300 miles in 2 days so it should show itself should the problem be true.

The battery is charging normally now too.

Well, thank you for your suggestions and input. If all goes well - I'll cancel the tech drive - they already think I am crazy. I will still have the O2 sensor installed.

Ah - life is good once again! :lol: Thanks again gentlemen.

 

[Insightful Trekker]

Re: Reply

I will still have the O2 sensor installed.

Your service tech was right :!: :shock:

There are credible posts in here by 2 other Insighters that had bad O2 sensors fail in this intermittant way. Your CAT's are being stressed. Better not wait too long to replace the O2 sensor. By your posts some "damage" has already been done. The CATs _can_ still be functional for many thousands of miles to come without further stress (the "bad" O2 sensor).

Replace the _primary_ LAF type O2 sensor _before_ your next drive or else.... (after you find out how much the CATs are).

 

[jack9994]

valve adjustment is every 27k miles not 105k - even 27k is too infrequent

 

[Insightful Trekker]

Huh :?: :?

Read your owners manual :?:

Familiar with Honda's roller rocker valve train :?:

Seen for yourself its long term stability :?:

Been used in various models for 20 years now :!:

27K is even shorter than with Honda's "old" system (non roller rocker) which was a 30K recomended clearance inspection interval.

Prove it to yourself. Perform the clearance measurement at whatever shorter interval you choose. But if their drifting faster than a 100K +- interval will manage something else more serious is afoot.

 

[jack9994]

John

Your wrong for once :shock: My service schedule and the Honda ESM both state 27k. In fact the gaps were excessive at one service hence my comment. Knowledge Base maintenance summary also states 30k for first valve check, then at 60k intervals. There are lots of differences between US and Euro maintenance including the fact that service intervals are 9k in Europe.
You live and learn.

Regards
John

 

[Insightful Trekker]

Well,

I thought I made a mistake once, but found out I was wrong :!: :lol:

But back here in the States 105K is sufficent (unless noisey) and American Honda's recomendation. Nor can I imagine why the clearance would degrade faster on your side of the pond. :? Unless its something to do with your steering wheel being on the opposite side.

Yes, too late is potentially much worse than too often (as long as the adjustment is done correctly ). Else you risk a burnt valve, many times more expensive than your 3.88889 x more frequent inspection.

You can read the maintenance section of the USA Insight's owner's manual on-line here:

Modifications and Technical Issues

Sticky: F.A.Q.: Can I read the Insight manual online?
http://www.insightcentral.net/forum/vie ... php?t=6066

Sorry, I'll never learn all the worldwide variations so I give notice that all my replies are USA based.

Sometimes you can be wrong & right at the same time.

HTH!