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I think you people are so far over my head in technology I would need a extra booster pack on a Saturn rocket to try to get close enough to understand a minuscule of your knowledge, let alone learn how to speak in your language. Think that I am going to be relegated to attaching wire to each cell so I can individually monitor each cell every six or 12 months. I don't understand much of what you answered but appreciate your responses
 

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I have all the available docs from the Toshiba site.
No leads that I can see apart from the name of the document we need as mentioned earlier.

“Stationary Battery Module BMU development guide (6E6V0058)”
Hi All,

I am about to dive back into this BMS (looking to access balancing related functionality) and just wanted to check if anyone here has seen useful info outside of this forum and my initial cell voltage decode two years back (Could someone help me figure out this HONDA BMS? - Endless Sphere)?

Also, I remember searching for hours trying to find the mating connectors for the pigtails on the packs and coming up empty... I have the JST 08CPT-B-2A (CAN/power/thermo) plugs and populated some SM08B-GHS-TB (serial debug) sockets but would really love to use the pigtails.

Thanks, Scott.
 

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I can't help any with decoding the BMS commands, but some folks have bought the Fit main battery harnesses from Greentec to harvest the pigtail mates. I forget what I paid, but it wasn't a lot.
 
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I have all the available docs from the Toshiba site.
No leads that I can see apart from the name of the document we need as mentioned earlier.

“Stationary Battery Module BMU development guide (6E6V0058)”
@retepsnikrep
I've been looking for that document as well with no success. However, in looking at:
I noticed there are 4 docs:
Battery Module Type1-23 Instruction ManualInstruction manual of Battery Module Type1-23.6F4E00072020/3/26
Revision:4
Battery Module Type3 Instruction ManualInstruction manual of Battery Module Type3-20.6F4E00012020/3/26
Revision:9
Battery Module Type3-23 Instruction ManualInstruction manual of Battery Module Type3-23.SPC-COM-E01132020/5/22
Revision:0
Battery Module Type3-23R Instruction Manual(Coming soon.)Instruction manual of Battery Module Type3-23R.SPC-COM-E01062020/3/26
Revision:0

Have you looked at these, or is this where you found the reference to 6E6V0058?

I also found the Japanese language download site and ran it through google translate:
That gives the clue that doc numbers starting with 6E are Japanese versions and that we are probably looking for 6F6V0058.

Even though this doc isn't listed, it might be worth looking at the final URLs used to download the docs you can get . If the URL for example ends in 6F6V0056_Rev4.pdf
which is one of the docs that dnhub attached above, it might be possible to substitute 6F6V0058_Rev4.pdf and try different rev #s. We might get lucky.

I would register and try it, but per there website they don't deal with individuals.
 

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I can't help any with decoding the BMS commands, but some folks have bought the Fit main battery harnesses from Greentec to harvest the pigtail mates. I forget what I paid, but it wasn't a lot.
$70 as of a few weeks ago
 
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Yeah, pretty cheap and you can do three 72 cell systems with one harness. No pins and crimp tools to worry with. I'm trying to use an Orion which doesn't require the pigtails, but I bought one of the harnesses just in case.:)
 

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Just to let everyone know, I had DALY manufacture me BMS'S for my LTO SCiB batteries. They are common port 24S 2.7V 60AMP/40AMP and are working correctly in my solar battery bank system. I have no idea if this combination would work for electric automobiles.
 

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Sounds interesting, how much were they?
Please post pics and full details.
The first batch of 15 was around $408 landed. LTO 24S 57.6V BMS 40AMP Charge and Discharge Current. These parameters were used to accommodate my Sol-Ark 12k which I use 60V Nominal and 48V Minimal. www.dalyelec.com
You can email them and explain what parameters you need and they will give you a billing you pay them through PayPal. I received them 5 days after my payment.
 

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Discussion Starter · #72 ·
Just be aware this sort of BMS is not suitable for in our cars.

What we want is a BMS without the current control hardware.
We just want a high and low cell logic level signal that tells the car to cut power.

If a BMS cut's regen or assist without telling the car it may cause serious issues.
It will almost certainly cause an IMA code.
 

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Discussion Starter · #73 ·
Digging around....... FIT (LTO) & CR-Z thoughts.

I have been playing with some OEM CR-Z Lithium BMS boards and I now have a Lithium CR-Z MCM to go with them.
I have been watching the comms on the IMACAN bus. :geek:

The 4 x 10 cell BMS boards (ID 201, 202, 203, 204) in the CR-Z broadcast voltage data in a similar way to the LTO (FIT) 12 cell BMS boards. The data structure isn't exactly the same but they are using the same basic ID's.

In the Lithium CR-Z there is one extra packet (ID 501) on the IMA bus being sent by the MCM at 500ms intervals.
That's nice and slow and unlikely to be super urgent data requiring a fast response.

I strongly suspect this is the BMS balance control packet which commands the boards to balance. ;)
I did a quick capture of just this packet today and you can see the basic alternating packet structure.

The first 5 bytes (D1-D5) might be packed bits (5 x 8 = 40) to turn on or off the balance circuits on the boards.

$06 $DB $B8 $3E $8F

00000110 11011011 10111000 00111110 10001111

I think it alternately turns them on and off, and is likely measuring voltage more accurately when they are off.
I need to capture some data when driving to see if anything changes but you get the idea.

It might be that the first ten bits are for board id 201, the second ten 202, etc etc
All the BMS boards are probably listening for ID 501 and picking out the bits they need.

There is a four packet rotating checksum security byte on the end D8, but we can probably work out how that is being generated.

I suppose what I am getting at is this might also hold true for the LTO FIT boards which have the same ID's.
If we can establish a connection and control balancing on the CR-Z boards we might be able to extrapolate from that and enable balancing on the LTO boards. :unsure:


Code:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
id501 - 06:26:06 05/05/2021 - Hexadecimal
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

TYPE  ___TIME____  ___ID____  D1   D2   D3   D4   D5   D6   D7   D8   __COUNT___   __PERIOD__
          
RD11  7.0021       501        00   00   00   00   00   FF   F0   7E   2            0.5001
RD11  7.5020       501        06   DB   B8   3E   8F   FF   0B   00   3            0.4999
RD11  8.0019       501        00   00   00   00   00   FF   F0   50   4            0.5000
RD11  8.5019       501        06   DB   B8   3E   8F   FF   0B   2E   5            0.5000
RD11  9.0019       501        00   00   00   00   00   FF   F0   7E   6            0.4999
RD11  9.5018       501        06   DB   B8   3E   8F   FF   0B   00   7            0.5000
RD11  10.0018      501        00   00   00   00   00   FF   F0   50   8            0.5000
RD11  10.5018      501        06   DB   B8   3E   8F   FF   0B   2E   9            0.5000
RD11  11.0017      501        00   00   00   00   00   FF   F0   7E   10           0.4999
RD11  11.5017      501        06   DB   B8   3E   8F   FF   0B   00   11           0.5000
RD11  12.0016      501        00   00   00   00   00   FF   F0   50   12           0.4999
RD11  12.5016      501        06   DB   B8   3E   8F   FF   0B   2E   13           0.5000
RD11  13.0016      501        00   00   00   00   00   FF   F0   7E   14           0.5000
RD11  13.5016      501        06   DB   B8   3E   8F   FF   0B   00   15           0.5000
RD11  14.0015      501        00   00   00   00   00   FF   F0   50   16           0.4999
RD11  14.5015      501        06   DB   B8   3E   8F   FF   0B   2E   17           0.5000
RD11  15.0014      501        00   00   00   00   00   FF   F0   7E   18           0.5000
RD11  15.5014      501        06   DB   B8   3E   8F   FF   0B   00   19           0.5000
RD11  16.0014      501        00   00   00   00   00   FF   F0   50   20           0.5000
RD11  16.5014      501        06   DB   B8   3E   8F   FF   0B   2E   21           0.5000
RD11  17.0013      501        00   00   00   00   00   FF   F0   7E   22           0.5000
RD11  17.5013      501        06   DB   B8   3E   8F   FF   0B   00   23           0.5000
RD11  18.0012      501        00   00   00   00   00   FF   F0   50   24           0.4999
RD11  18.5012      501        06   DB   B8   3E   8F   FF   0B   2E   25           0.5000
RD11  19.0012      501        00   00   00   00   00   FF   F0   7E   26           0.5000
RD11  19.5012      501        06   DB   B8   3E   8F   FF   0B   00   27           0.5000
RD11  20.0011      501        00   00   00   00   00   FF   F0   50   28           0.4999
RD11  20.5011      501        06   DB   B8   3E   8F   FF   0B   2E   29           0.5000
RD11  21.0010      501        00   00   00   00   00   FF   F0   7E   30           0.4999
RD11  21.5010      501        06   DB   B8   3E   8F   FF   0B   00   31           0.5000
RD11  22.0010      501        00   00   00   00   00   FF   F0   50   32           0.5000
RD11  22.5009      501        06   DB   B8   3E   8F   FF   0B   2E   33           0.5000
RD11  23.0009      501        00   00   00   00   00   FF   F0   7E   34           0.4999
RD11  23.5009      501        06   DB   B8   3E   8F   FF   0B   00   35           0.5000
RD11  24.0008      501        00   00   00   00   00   FF   F0   50   36           0.4999
RD11  24.5008      501        06   DB   B8   3E   8F   FF   0B   2E   37           0.5000
RD11  25.0008      501        00   00   00   00   00   FF   F0   7E   38           0.5000
RD11  25.5007      501        06   DB   B8   3E   8F   FF   0B   00   39           0.5000
RD11  26.0007      501        00   00   00   00   00   FF   F0   50   40           0.4999
RD11  26.5007      501        06   DB   B8   3E   8F   FF   0B   2E   41           0.5000
RD11  27.0006      501        00   00   00   00   00   FF   F0   7E   42           0.4999
RD11  27.5006      501        06   DB   B8   3E   8F   FF   0B   00   43           0.5000
RD11  28.0006      501        00   00   00   00   00   FF   F0   50   44           0.5000
RD11  28.5005      501        06   DB   B8   3E   8F   FF   0B   2E   45           0.5000
RD11  29.0005      501        00   00   00   00   00   FF   F0   7E   46           0.5000
RD11  29.5005      501        06   DB   B8   3E   8F   FF   0B   00   47           0.5000
RD11  30.0004      501        00   00   00   00   00   FF   F0   50   48           0.5000
RD11  30.5004      501        06   DB   B8   3E   8F   FF   0B   2E   49           0.5000
RD11  31.0004      501        00   00   00   00   00   FF   F0   7E   50           0.5000
RD11  31.5003      501        06   DB   B8   3E   8F   FF   0B   00   51           0.5000
RD11  32.0003      501        00   00   00   00   00   FF   F0   50   52           0.4999
RD11  32.5003      501        06   DB   B8   3E   8F   FF   0B   2E   53           0.5000
RD11  33.0002      501        00   00   00   00   00   FF   F0   7E   54           0.4999
RD11  33.5002      501        06   DB   B8   3E   8F   FF   0B   00   55           0.5000
RD11  34.0002      501        00   00   00   00   00   FF   F0   50   56           0.5000
RD11  34.5001      501        06   DB   B8   3E   8F   FF   0B   2E   57           0.5000
RD11  35.0001      501        00   00   00   00   00   FF   F0   7E   58           0.5000
RD11  35.5006      501        06   DB   B8   3E   8F   FF   0B   00   59           0.5005
RD11  36.0000      501        00   00   00   00   00   FF   F0   50   60           0.4995
RD11  36.5000      501        06   DB   B8   3E   8F   FF   0B   2E   61           0.5000
 

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Discussion Starter · #75 · (Edited)
So let's have a think about this ID 501 data a bit more.. :unsure:

Not forgetting 501 might have nothing to do with balancing and I am barking up the wrong tree.

I did a couple of drives and the 501 data has not changed with my CR-Z Lithium pack. (See attached)
In alternates as in the above data with an ostensibly empty packet

So if we take the packet with obvious data in it, what could that mean?

06 DB B8 3E 8F FF 0B 2E
00 00 00 00 00 FF F0 7E

We know the end byte is a rotating security check byte so lets ignore that and the other two bytes preceding it as they seem pretty static.


Option 1

My first thought above was the five green bytes were packed bits for the 40 cells balancing command.

I think now that might be unlikely, as that would mean all the cells with a 1 in the below would be balancing.

$06 $DB $B8 $3E $8F

00000110 11011011 10111000 00111110 10001111

Option 2

Are those 5 bytes some sort of voltage levels being sent out by the BCM? Min/Maximum?
Is the BCM saying 'Hey BMS boards I want you to balance to these levels. Thanks..'

So perhaps the BMS boards simply take those levels and then balance independently to those limits.

So what sensible LiPo voltage numbers can we come up with from these 5 bytes?
We know LiPo works from about 3.000V to 4.200 V abs max.

Are there some max/min values in here or perhaps deviation limits?

$06 $DB $B8 $3E $8F

They might be split into 12 bit chunks so $06D might be one number and $BB8 another,
or they might be 10 or 16 bit etc etc

For comparison.........

The CR-Z BMS boards squirt out the ten cell voltage data in the following basic 12 bit format.

In this example the voltage across each cell was approx 3.83V

RD11 1.1946 203 9F D9 FC 9F 49 F5 20 3C
RD11 1.2151 203 9F D9 FA 9F 89 F3 2B 40
RD11 1.2346 203 9F 49 F9 00 00 00 00 9D

$9FD = D2557 * 15 = 3.8355V
$9FC = D2556 * 15 = 3.8340V

It's perhaps logical to assume voltages sent to the boards might be in the same format. :unsure:

So back to our data $06 $DB $B8 $3E $8F. What voltages etc can we make with these?
 

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Discussion Starter · #76 · (Edited)
So back to our ID 501 data $06 $DB $B8 $3E $8F.
What sensible LiPo voltages/numbers etc can we make with these?

$6DB = 1755
$B83 = 2947
$E8F = 3727

$06D = 109
$BB8 = 3000
$3E8 = 1000
$F = 15

Any other ideas?

I might be able to get the same data from another Lithium car in a week or two for comparison.
 

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I read this stuff and wish I could help more, but my understanding of the data is very limited.

I have done some study, using a basic BCM textbook, of balancing theory and methods. Most systems seem to do top balancing. If this is the case with the CRZ, then a few "tentative" conclusions follow:

-Since it would be wasteful of energy, and probably operationally awkward to be pack top balanced at all times, there is probably a tolerance window on cell voltages.

-For reasonably healthy packs, cell balance is going to change slowly, in a relative sense. Therefore, there is probably no need to poll the cell voltages rapidly. Your .5 second polling of cell voltages would make some sense. If there are data that changes even slower, that would also make sense.

-It may be quite difficult to "catch" the system while it is actually balancing. It might be an event which only happens once in 5,10,20 drive cycles. Makes sense to me it wouldn't happen very often, but when it is actively balancing, there would definitely be changes in the data structure.

-You might be able to provoke a balancing cycle by discharging a cell or two deliberately with a resistor load, assuming you have access to the cells at least by proxy.

-If there is a SOC gauge, then a balancing cycle would "probably" look like a positive recal does with the Gen1 NiMH packs, with the gauge spending a fair amount of time at the full position????

Probably not very helpful. I'm just trying to envision what a balancing cycle would look like functionally. Might be a clue there.

I wish you could get broader participation on this question. I know we have folks on here who have good understanding of data structures. YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE so step up!
 

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My first thought echoed @jime :
"It may be quite difficult to "catch" the system while it is actually balancing. It might be an event which only happens once in 5,10,20 drive cycles. Makes sense to me it wouldn't happen very often, but when it is actively balancing, there would definitely be changes in the data structure"

Also agreeing with jime to put a resistor on a switch to purposely imbalance a cell or two and see what it does. You could monitor the cell's voltage too, and log times, while listening to the BMS data, to see when it starts to balance, and when it stops.

My assumption is that it probably tells the BMS "hey, time to activate balance routine" but I don't know if it says "balance this particular cell." It maybe tells a given BMS board to activate its balance routine? Or did you already like sort out which board was receiving these communications?

Maybe they did put the cell-level balance logic in the ECM instead of on a BMS board because that would have let them flash the ECM with a new procedure if there ever was a software update.
 

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It would be informative to collect ALL messages over a long period - all messages from all participants on the bus, including periods the car is off - to capture balancing events, understand how all the messages relate to each other over time, and capture one-off events or any wake-up events that may occur while the ignition is off. For example, there is one message at the very start of the capture that is different from the others. A long duration capture of all messages on the bus, with timestamps, provides valuable context and ensures one is not missing a key message or group of messages.

A long-term monitoring approach that is passive (no attempt to manually imbalance) also avoids the risk of putting the car into a mode that requires dealer tools for recovery if one accidentally takes manual unbalancing too far (not to mention physical safety or the risk of a slip of a tool blowing out a module).

If I had access to one of these cars, I would install one of these - a Pi Zero with a CAN bus module - to capture the CAN bus data, and come back later (perhaps days or weeks or longer - storage capacity is effectively unlimited) to collect and analyze it.

90534
 

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Any updates? Today I had my pack down kinda low (154-ish) and I noticed my Ltd was high, about 0040 or 4% of a volt. One cell, index #35, which is the one right BEFORE the circuit breaker, was showing itself to be about 4% of a volt lower than the rest of the cells. The others looked to be within 1% of a volt of eachother. This condition persisted for my whole drive home tonight -- about 45 minutes total.

I'm also willing to try charging that single cell, but I'm not sure how I'd do it.

My first thought is get a spare low voltage wall wort, maybe one that outputs 5V, and alligator clip it to that cell, and wait until it rises. I'm assuming this is probably not safe or intelligent for some reason or another, so I'm asking here first -- A: Can I do that and B: if I did would it help me balance that cell?
 
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