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Discussion Starter #1
Drove a new FRV with the 2,2 liter diesel motor today: sweet car, great motor. Hard to believe they matched it up with a 6-speed box because the torque is so incredible that shifting gears is hardly worth the effort. Jumping from first to third or even fourth barely slows the acceleration at all. The acceleration on the autoroute in sixth gear with just a wee bit of pressing on the throttle serves up an instant forward thrust that blew me away. The rest of the FRV is pretty nice too. Lots of space and I have to say I kind of like that three across up front seating, even though I ran it alone. Reminded me of the old (very old actually) days of driving around in my parents classic american sleds with those huge bench seats that were seemingly designed for exploring the opposite sex. Okay, not that much room in the FRV but it's pretty roomy anyway. Front end feels kind of heavy in the handling department but what the heck, this is no lightweight coupe. Love the way the back seats flop down to create a nice big space with a totally flat floor. All in all have to say the FRV is looking like a pretty attractive option for replacing my trusty Kangoo, though for sure the Honda is way more sophisticated and hence lacking in the praticality department where the Kangoo shines. Haul crap in the back of the Kangoo then just hose it out if needed! Won't work with the Honda.

But as attractive as the FRV is in so many respects, the new Civic is really hard to turn down. Haven't driven one yet but after having experienced the diesel in the heavier and considerably less aero FRV, I can easily imagine that the Civic with the same motor is one seriously sweet drive that ought to post great fuel consumption figures. My guess is that the euro Civic with the diesel will beat the hybrid for economy at the pump. Beautiful car to look at and to sit in. Way better in life than in the photos. Honda has obviously been spending a lot of time studying what the italians have been doing with the Alfa's and Fiat's in the design department. Hard to believe that those jelly heads running GM never took advantage of their ownership % of Fiat. Some great ideas over there in Italy. Clearly Honda paid attention even if the detroiters didn't have a clue. Then again nothing new there.

I remember a post by a german member in which he seemed to say that Honda's built in England were not great in the quality department, unlike Honda's built in Japan, but based purely on visuals, the new Civic is one fine automobile. I don't know where the FRV's are built. Kind of surprising Honda doesn't sell them in the states but then again given the addiction for size, weight, and never-used 4X4 systems, I guess they didn't see much sense in creating an americanized version. I'll drop down and try out the Civic as soon as we get out of this snow cycle. At least the FRV made it up the mountain to where I live without snow tires. The roads were snowy but there was more black showing than white so I wasn't totally surprised but I was wondering for awhile - and wishing I had my Insight which I'd left at the dealer's to have the alignment done.

Anyway, if you ever have a chance to test out the Honda 2,2 liter diesel, don't hesitate. Fantastic motor. Too bad the FRV doesn't have instant fuel consumption read outs. Would have been interesting to see those.
 

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The 2,2 litre Diesel-engine is one sweet machine. 8)

And yes, it was me who mentioned the British-made Hondas having a bad build-quality. That's why I cannot wait to see the 2006 ciVic. I hope it (ciVic 2006) will teach me a lesson and have the best so far....although I can't see it.

In the first road-tests the ciVic Diesel wasn't as quiet and vibration-free as the Accord Diesel.

I'll have a ciVic over the week-end to test, like I had the chance with the Accord last year. You'll hear from me again with a full write-up.

cheers
Gordon
 

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Discussion Starter #3
in the FRV, about the only giveaway that a diesel was under the hood was the whistling of the turbo now and then. I was stunned by how quiet and smooth that motor was. If there was any vibration, it was lost long before it got to inside the cabin. Maybe that's the FRV's structure as opposed to the Civic's, though really have no idea whatsoever. The FRV, or rather FR-V the way Honda seems to prefer writing it, is kind of an oddity visually because it looks way bigger than the new Civic but apparently is only 5 cm longer. Clearly it's wider (3 abreast room guarantees that) and higher - and heavier of course - but the design makes it seem, to my eyes at any rate, bigger than it apparently is.

But oh man how that engine pulled it up the mountain. I've got a 700 vertical meter climb to get home with lots of 10 and 12% grades and straights effectively non-existent and there I was cruising, and I mean cruising easy, in fourth and sometimes even in fifth gear! Stunning performance.
 

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I have stated before that I am mightily impressed by the new generation (commonrail) diesel engines. In my job, I often have to drive a variety of rental cars and Seat diesels are some of the best cars I have come across.

Check out a comprehensive review of the 06 Euro Civic here:

http://www.channel4.com/4car/road-tests ... ic06-.html

Basically they are only unhappy with the lack of rear wash/wipe and the 1.8 petrol engine sounding rough when 'cruising' at 85mph....hmmm.

The Honda diesel was designed from scratch and is excellent. In the new Euro Civic it averages a claimed 55MPG whilst giving a claimed 0-60 time of sub 9 seconds.

Gordon / No.166 - Your prejudice about British-built cars is a little dated. We are no longer in the Leyland days (or Rover for that matter!). The Japanese owned plants in the UK are widely well regarded. Check out the build quality comments in the review above.

I am going to have a tough decision next year between the new Civic Hybrid (61MPG, dull looking, slow, £15K+) or the Euro Civic diesel (55MPG, stunning, fast, £18K+).
 

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The Citrus Smoothie said:
<snip>

Gordon / No.166 - Your prejudice about British-built cars is a little dated. We are no longer in the Leyland days (or Rover for that matter!). The Japanese owned plants in the UK are widely well regarded. Check out the build quality comments in the review above.

<snip>
But the reason some Brittish still drink warm beer is beacuse they have Lucas refrigerators, isn't it :?: :p <j/k>

More seriously I've seen a few Honda Odysseys Brittish built (by the VIN). No perceptable difference in quality that I could tell. And I do spend quite a bit of time under the bonnett now and then. ;)
 

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Insightful Trekker said:
[quote="The Citrus Smoothie":1najqiq3]
<snip>

Gordon / No.166 - Your prejudice about British-built cars is a little dated. We are no longer in the Leyland days (or Rover for that matter!). The Japanese owned plants in the UK are widely well regarded. Check out the build quality comments in the review above.

<snip>
But the reason some Brittish still drink warm beer is beacuse they have Lucas refrigerators, isn't it :?: :p <j/k>
[/quote:1najqiq3]

*rofl* ...warm beer...lucas fridges... *rofl*
Good one !

Without going too off-topic, I'd rather see and feel for myself than believe some comments on a web-site. So far there was no mention on the build-quality in any German magazine, either.
With the ciVic, and how it looks, I only want to hope that the things have changed.
I really don't want it to be some Trojan-horse. :wink:
 
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I was on the verge of buying the insight or the civic ima but i ended up with a 2004 2.2i-CTDi accord executive and i dont regret it one second!

latest diesel technology
big car, comfortable
clean
execellent fuel economy
good performance and torque

cant complain

/Stefan
 

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Discussion Starter #9
regarding choosing between the new Civic IMA and the new euro Civic with a diesel, I don't know what the situation will be with the Civic but as I understand it, Prius's cannot pull a trailer, against the rules apparently. Whether that is because of the power system or the transmission I haven't a clue but my guess is it has something to do with the transmission. If that's the case and you ever have reason to pull a trailer (over here in France we use these small, lightweight trailers to haul all kinds of stuff, seriously useful rigs) then you might want to look into whether the Civic will suffer the same restaint. I know the diesel Civic doesn't.

For myself there's no question that the euro Civic is far and away the better choice with those folding down back seats and the hatch back that enables hauling some pretty good loads around. Not as much as I could haul in the FRV but impressive nevertheless. Slap on a trailer hitch and voila, a diesel Civic instantly becomes wonderfully practical for hauling loads of compost, sand, etc. and hauling stuff to the recycling center. All of which my good friend can't do with his Prius. Well he could inside since the Prius seats fold flat to open a big space except he doesn't like to get the interior dirty.

I also have to wonder if the world fuel consumption figures won't favor the diesel over the IMA. I've seen reports of diesel Accords knocking down some fantastic fuel figures, like in the high 4's/100 km. Given that the Civic is lighter, smaller, and more aerodynamic (or it looks like that ought to be the case) I can easily imagine people getting into the low 4's with a diesel Civic.

And like you said, the euro Civic is way, way better looking. Hard to believe it's a Honda.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
thanks for that link; didn't know the site existed. What blew me away there were the aggregate fuel consumption figures that showed the Accord hybrid averaging 30 mpg (US) while you're knocking down 45 mpg! A rather strong argument for Honda's diesel and maybe for all modern diesel engines in general. The IMA Civics are only 1 or 2 mpg's better than your much bigger and way faster Accord, plus as you said you like to drive fast rather than going for fuel consumption figures. We'll see what the real world serves up but as I've said I think the new Civic diesel could outperform the new Civic IMA. And do so with massive, and I mean really massive, in-gear acceleration out on the road compared to the rather feeble in comparison response of the gas/hybrid motors.

The president of Peugeot said they're going to come out with a hybrid diesel version of the Partner next year. That could be interesting since they already have excellent diesel motors and combining those with the advantages of a hybrid system could do wonders. He claims a diesel serves up around a 20% gain over a gas motor, same as the gain - according to him - of a hybrid system. Thus in his thinking it's better and cheaper to replace a gas motor with a diesel to achieve that improvement and then if more is desired to hybridize the diesel to achieve an additional 20% gain. I haven't a clue as to whether he's correct or not but I would imagine he is. Peugeot/Citroen have a pretty good track record, at least in Europe since they don't exist in the states.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Upon further reflection I realized that your fuel consumption numbers put the lie to the 20% gain claim by Peugeot since your Accord is racking up a 50% improvement over the Accord Hybrid! True, the comparison is not straight up since I believe the Accord is running a V6 that's relatively big (to my knowledge they're not available in Europe and so I've paid then no attention whatsoever) whilst the diesel is only 2,2 liters. At any rate, looks like a big vote for diesels over gas hybrids.

Those numbers shown on this page from the site you gave the link to
http://www.greenhybrid.com/compare/mileage/
for all the hybrids also show how stupid the rush is to hybridizing suv's. The dumb rigs are still sucking down gas at unsustainable rates and they're doing worse than the diesel versions unfortunately being bought by way too many people here in France. When are people going to realize that those 4x4's with their weight and massive wheels/tires and driving trains ought to be banned from the showrooms! They're gas guzzlers, plain and simple. The world needs cars that run a minimum of 35 mpg (US) with improvements to raise that to a minimum of 50 ASAP.
 
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my ATH is 54,1 mpg

i will do some real testing later on keeping to the speedlimit, im sure that i will see figures like 60+ mpg

/Stefan
 

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enders said:
The president of Peugeot said they're going to come out with a hybrid diesel version of the Partner next year.
Most of the other European manufacturers are also currently (if quietly) working on diesel hybrids.

Mercedes have the S-class.

Volkswagen have already made what looks like a near production ready hybrid-diesel Golf, recently showed off at the Challenge Bibendum in China. Sorry, can't find the link with pics/reports. (Remember they already sold plug-in hybrid diesel vehicles back in the 90s).

Citroen are working with Ricardo to produce a diesel hybrid with the target of about 80 mpg (US).

Opel have presented the Astra diesel-hybrid, capable of 60 mpg (US) and 0-60 in less than 8 seconds.

Of these, I think Mercedes will be first to market, as rumours are that they are racing to get it into production to regain the technical high-ground.

:)
 

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Hondaism, if that is miles per Imperial (British) gallon, then it is about 37 miles per US gallon. This site and greenhybrid use the smaller US gallon as a comparable. It has led to some excitement and confusion in the past.
 
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i used miles per US gallon (3,78 litres)

0.4345 litres/10 kms was my ATH (54.1 mpg)
 

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All right Stefan! Thanks for clarifying that. Now I'm really impressed. Honda said that they did not want to build a Diesel, but when they did, they would design the world's best. Looks like they did. :D
 

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It IS the worlds best. In a German magazine (the german equivalent of "Auto Week") the Accord WON against the Audi A4 TDi, Jaguar Diesel and some new Alfa Romeo Diesel.
It is rare for a German magazine to have a foreign car win against a domestic.
8)
 

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enders said:
The president of Peugeot said they're going to come out with a hybrid diesel version of the Partner next year. That could be interesting since they already have excellent diesel motors and combining those with the advantages of a hybrid system could do wonders. .
I know Valeo ( our french Lucas...) has many problems with the combination Diesel engine/ electric motor . It seems Diesel engine supplies too much torque and it's difficult to regulate and combinate with electric power. Did you ever heard something about that ?
 
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