Honda Insight Forum banner

1 - 16 of 16 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
17 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Found this kind of interesting... for comparison purposes, the EPA has posted the "equivilent" 2008 MPG ratings of pre-2008 vehicles. From what I understand, the new standards, which mark a change for the 2008 model year, are supposed to be more realistic, taking into account faster highway speeds, use of air conditioning, etc. While the mpg rating is lower across the board for all cars, it had been said that hybrids would take an especially big hit under the new standards.

2006 Honda Insight, CVT
Old: 57 city, 56 hwy
New: 45 city, 49 hwy
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/calculatorCompareSideBySide.jsp?column=1&id=21631

2006 Honda Insight, MT
Old: 60 city, 66 hwy
New: 48 city, 58 hwy
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/calculatorCompareSideBySide.jsp?column=1&id=21632

Of course, they are just numbers, but interesting nonetheless... the question is, are they realistic? Would an average person driving an Insight get these kind of mpg numbers?
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,332 Posts
Realistic? Perhaps, but the old standard already had a fudge factor of twenty percent built into it. That is why a good driver could easily exceed the EPA ratings, and a fanatic blow the doors off it.

I'm at 72.3 LMPG. Not bad for a Canadian, eh! ;)

The new standards are like an overweight person buying bigger clothes. Like shooting at an easier target, it does little to improve the aim. Sigh!
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
4,942 Posts
And it just shows that there is a HUGE variability in driving style / conditions and MPG.

IMO as long as the playing field is level the EPA numbers are a good compairson between makes and models. The "debate" on what is a "reasonable" drive cycle and what actual number is assigned to a city or highway value is never ending and completely misses the point. IMO its a red herring and wastes precious energy in addressing our real challenges at hand.

A _primary_ displayed MPG gauge like a speedometer, digital, with lifetime and trip averages. That's what the buying public needs. :idea:

YMWV
Your Mileage WILL Vary
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,631 Posts
While I agree that the tests performed should be the same for every vehicle, I don't think that they should have included every test combined to be one number for city and one for highway. I think they should post the individual MPG for every test they perform and let the consumer compare the numbers based upon the driving style. They already show a table of the each test they perform as shown here (see detailed comparison tab). So why not just include that table for every car with the MPG shown for each test?... I understand that they can not go back and re-test earlier vehicles but since they already have a formula, it can be displayed for each test so that it is not presented as an overall result.

You can also click on a link to convert any car to the new formula:
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/calculator.html
So when they show you these new numbers, they are basically going by this calculator.

IMO, this is not good news for cars that get good gas mileage (including some non-hybrids) because Joe Public will once again state "See, I knew those hybrids don't get the miles per gallon that they say" because a 10 mile per gallon drop appears more extreme than a 1 MPG drop on some of the lower MPG cars when it is really just math.

JoeCVT - Just your average CVT owner
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
338 Posts
actually...

that looks about spot on for my tires and driving habits.
weird.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
366 Posts
2003 with CVT for me and I get 55 MPG highway (winter and summer, 59 MPG the other two seasons) and 45 city (all year). 54.7 LMPG.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
224 Posts
The whole concept of the EPA modifying their estimates to reflect "reality" seems like some kind of moral dilemma. Is this "truth in advertising" in the consumer's public interest, or otherwise "lowering the bar" so that most people feel better about their actual fuel economy?

It would be interesting to see the EPA take on the task of developing a database, such as this website had done in the past, and that certain other fuel economy conscious websites currently do.

Such a database could show regional and seasonal variations, as well as the possibilities (demonstrated in the respective extremes by hypermilers and maniacs).

The databases for the Insight don't indicate a normal "bell curve" distribution, but instead, multiple peaks (on both sides of the "old" EPA estimate major peak around 64mpg).

I'd expect that the statistical distributions of fuel economy for all vehicles with real time fuel consumption indicators are not "normal" bell curves.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,332 Posts
Methinks the government would have achieved more for the money by simply mandating fuel consumption meters on all vehicles. I suppose some technically challenged companies would object that this is impossible on certain engines. :roll:

OK, so hypermillers will really look like majicians now!
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
4,942 Posts
nemystic said:
The databases for the Insight don't indicate a normal "bell curve" distribution, but instead, multiple peaks (on both sides of the "old" EPA estimate major peak around 64mpg).

I'd expect that the statistical distributions of fuel economy for all vehicles with real time fuel consumption indicators are not "normal" bell curves.
Unfortunately database sources not verifiable are not necessairly accurate. And from what I understand was the primary reason IC's MPG database was abandon. IMO the only thing worse than nothing is a known false something.

From my first hand observations of 5 different Insights (including my own) 64 MPG does seem to be an accurate "average" in my location. Two of us are in the hypermiler catagory with LMPG's above 70. The remaining three do not drive with MPG as their _primary_ goal and their LMPG's are in the low mid 60's. From what we know of hypermiler obsessions a spike well above the upper EPA "limit" will be there. ;)

From the few posts in here on the other end of the spectrum the ultra low MPG'rs _appear_ to be of the sort that desire high MPG but do not understand the limits of physics and internal combustion gasoline engines. Their driving pattern is one that cannot achieve high MPG (short trips or heavy stop & go traffic).

IMO without verifiable data interpretation is speculation. But it would be interesting data to see. :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
171 Posts
The new ratings for the Civic hybrid didn't seem that low to me, but these Insight number seem too low. I'm doing better than both in my HCH (almost 54 mpg) and it's a CVT. Then again only Insight I have personal experience with is only getting 47 mpg and it's a manual... but I drive my HCH soft and the Insight is driven hard; it's a work vehicle and everyone want's to know how fast it can go.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
741 Posts
Re: How would the Insight be rated under the 2008 EPA standa

Kevin said:
it had been said that hybrids would take an especially big hit under the new standards.
Faster Speeds and Acceleration
Air Conditioner Use
Colder Outside Temperatures

Okay can someone tell me WHY a hybrid would be especially "hard hit" by these changes? It seems to me that faster driving, AC use, and colder temps would have a negative affect on ALL cars. Why are hybrids singled out?

[EDIT] - Oops I just looked-up the Prius. The Civic Hybrid had the same "hit" as the Civic Gasoline - about 15% drop. But the Prius is REALLY hit hard in the City MPG: Was: 60. Now: 48. IMHO this IS more realisitic, since most city Prius drivers do not get any higher than 50 on their commutes.

I wonder how this will affect CAFE? Will all the corporations average fleet MPG suddenly drop 4-5 mpg?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
184 Posts
I wonder how this will affect CAFE? Will all the corporations average fleet MPG suddenly drop 4-5 mpg?
From:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... Id=5458404
The last paragraph reads:
"That's because back when the EPA first revised its mileage numbers downward, automakers won a lawsuit barring the agency from using the new numbers for CAFE purposes. The Department of Transportation, which administers the CAFE program, still uses the overly optimistic numbers produced by the earliest mpg tests." :cry:
Have no idea if that's still the case.
JoeS.(veggin' on the boat in Mazatlan)
http://www.KatieKat.net
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,032 Posts
Re: How would the Insight be rated under the 2008 EPA standa

Okay can someone tell me WHY a hybrid would be especially "hard hit" by these changes? It seems to me that faster driving, AC use, and colder temps would have a negative affect on ALL cars. Why are hybrids singled out?[/b]
Because if it takes, say, 10 horsepower to run the A/C compressor, and the Insight is only using 20 to go down the highway, it's a big percentage increase. But the SUV using 40 to go down the highway uses the same 10 for the A/C, so it's a smaller percentage increase. Etc.
 
1 - 16 of 16 Posts
Top