[Dougie]

Brain-dead article in NYT...

"Some hybrids save hardly any fuel, energy efficiency advocates say. "The new ones are all being used for power," said Kateri Callahan, the president of the Alliance to Save Energy, a nonprofit advocacy group based here.

"Hybrids should be encouraged, Ms. Callahan said, because their electric components some day could be useful in an all-electric car, perhaps running on a fuel cell. But she added that the government should be careful about which hybrids it subsidizes through tax benefits. Now, she said, the car companies are "building to the high-end market. They think people want performance."
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/17/autom ... ybrid.html

Duh, if you didn't have a hybrid system in the Prius, you'd have a four passenger gasoline powered car with 70 HP. How many people would buy THAT?

 

[b1shmu63]

Yup, and a really really sluggish one at that because of the Atkins cycle engine. I'm guessing 0 to 60 in 22 seconds, like a post war VW. :lol:

The new Accord goes 0 to 60 in 6,9 seconds but still achieves 30 MPG according to a survey on Greenhybrid. That is 50 percent better mileage than the average North American car.

I don't get it. Where is the problem? They used to complain hybrids were underpowered and slow. Now they're complaining that they are too powerful! Sorry, reminds me of the kind of argument you hear when a marriage is going sour. :roll:

Both Honda and Toyota are committed to converting their entire range of vehicles to hybrids in less than 5 years. They have now proved beyond a doubt that they have the technology to do it.

 

[Aaron Cake]

Brain-dead article in NYT...
"Some hybrids save hardly any fuel, energy efficiency advocates say. "The new ones are all being used for power," said Kateri Callahan, the president of the Alliance to Save Energy, a nonprofit advocacy group based here.

That's true though. The Civic Hybrid is only marginally better in most cases then the regular Civic. The Escape Hybrid just gets poor mileage in general, the GMC Sonoma "hybrid" is a joke, the Accord Hybrid really sucks up the fuel, and frankly, there's nothing spectacular about the Prius either.

"Hybrids should be encouraged, Ms. Callahan said, because their electric components some day could be useful in an all-electric car,

Bingo! People ask me why I am so excited by hybrids, and that's the reason. The hybrids are a stepping stone to true EVs in the eyes of both the manufacturers and the general public.

perhaps running on a fuel cell.

Boo! With all the money the (US) government and auto manufacturers has wasted on fool cell development, we could have had a fleed of Li-Polymer/Li-Ion powered EVs with real world 400 mile ranges.

 

[ghillie]

I don't agree about the Prius. We average about 45mpg allowing for both summer and winter mostly short suburban trips (less than 10 miles each way) and some longer ones. We mostly drive the Prius without much attempt to maximize FE. That's at least twice as good as most other family size cars, which I think qualifies as a "spectacular" improvement in FE.

I average about 60mpg in my Insight and I love it. But as a family car it's simply not an option!

 

[Big D Insightman]

I agree with Dougie. All hybrids should be made to get at least 40 MPG on the highway at reasonable speeds. If they don't, I wouldn't see why anyone would want one. The idea of the Accord hybrid having a 3.5L V-6 engine is crazy. I think it should have a 2.0L four cylinder max with at least double or triple the IMI assist and lean burn capable and a 5 or 6 speed manual transmission. Also make as much of the body as possible out of alluminum and don't fit it with 50 or 60 series tires. Case in point a big Buick Lesabre is rated to get 29 or 30 MPG on the highway. So your average middle aged consumer will probally take the family on a vacation in the Buick since it gets the same mileage as the "Performace" hybrid.

 

[Aaron Cake]

I don't agree about the Prius. We average about 45mpg allowing for both summer and winter mostly short suburban trips (less than 10 miles each way) and some longer ones. We mostly drive the Prius without much attempt to maximize FE. That's at least twice as good as most other family size cars, which I think qualifies as a "spectacular" improvement in FE.

You could do almost that mileage in a Toyota Echo while sacrificing some space (but spending a lot less money). Many of the diesel sedans will get mileage in the 30s as well without any effort.

Personally, I just don't see the point of hybridizing a vehicle unless you can get a drastic (ie. Insight) improvement, or a good performance increase.

 

[gonnamissit]

You could do almost that mileage in a Toyota Echo while sacrificing some space (but spending a lot less money). Many of the diesel sedans will get mileage in the 30s as well without any effort.

Personally, I just don't see the point of hybridizing a vehicle unless you can get a drastic (ie. Insight) improvement, or a good performance increase.

The hybrid accord (3.0 V6) is rated at 29 / 37 MPG, 240HP.
The standard accord (3.0 V6) is rated at 21/30, 240HP
The standard accord (2.4 4L) is rated at 24/34, 160HP


The Hybrid is 38% more fuel efficient than the standard V6 in the city cycle and 23% more fuel efficient in the highway cycle.

The Hybrid is 20% more fuel efficient than the standard 2.4L in the city cycle and 8% percent more fuel efficient in the highway cycle. BUT it is 50% more powerful!


50% more power with 20% less comsumption sounds pretty drastic to me!

But ofcourse if what you really want is to stop the dependency on oil then there is no other choice than the Insight (even if the wife and kids have to walk home).

 

[b1shmu63]

With the IMA 255 HP. :wink: Has a broader torque curve too.

 

[ghillie]

Aaron - maybe we just don't agree about the meaning of "drastic". The Insight is great but not a family car. The Prius could no doubt be built to have better fuel economy with, say, aluminium and less power but it would be too expensive and underperforming to sell. (Even as it is, motoring writers joke about how slow the Prius is - which is wrong but that's journalists for you)

I don't think that the Echo (a small light economy car) compares with the Prius. In any event, what I've read here suggests it gets no better than 30mpg city cycle. The same goes for diesels. Golf and A3 about 30mpg city cycle. I can't find figures for the Peugeot 407 diesel auto which I think is comparable in size and features to a Prius. A Peugeot 307 diesel manual seems to get better than 30mpg city cycle. All of these cars get much closer to the Prius on open road driving - but I'm most interested in comparing FE in the conditions that I drive in. No doubt other people will have different priorities.

gonnamissit - come on! you're back down under now - wife drives, kids double up in the passenger seat, kelpies in the back. My place would be on the roof rack next to the surfboard.

 

[gonnamissit]

gonnamissit - come on! you're back down under now - wife drives, kids double up in the passenger seat, kelpies in the back. My place would be on the roof rack next to the surfboard.

I spent a lot of time in rural areas growing up: Dad drives, Granma is in the passenger seat and everybody else (including the dogs and the odd calf) go in the ute's tray!
8)