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Discussion Starter #1
The MCM is the main hybrid control system:

The connectors and descriptions are in the Service manual at 12-9 to 12-13

The circuit diagrams are at 12-25 to 12-27

The Electrical Troubleshooting manual has the IMA circuits diagrams at 32 to 32-5


Some general info:
http://www.md92raid.100freemb.com/pub/i ... age92.html

The MCM section:
http://www.md92raid.100freemb.com/pub/i ... ge132.html

Some more info on hte MCM connections (and next page):
http://www.md92raid.100freemb.com/pub/i ... ge136.html
 

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Discussion Starter #2

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Hi Yves
The connector that I am proposing, would jack onto the back of the existing connectors where the wires come out when the connectors are inserted as normal. They will therefore be in parallel to the connector. There will be no need to unplug the connectors since I will be initially only monitoring the signals that are on the working system. Later once we see what the signals look like, we may need to get in series with one or more of the signals to inject our own control signal.
What I would need to make the test connector would be the back view of the connectors, with dimensions of the connector body and the pins from the wire side. Since all of the individual connectors jack into the large socket, it may be easier for me to just make one large connector that can connect to any or all of the 4 connectors.
Mike[/quote]
 

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Discussion Starter #4
OK that makes sense. I'll get on it next week-end. This week-end, it was 3 degrees F while I worked on the car (cold).

The pins are all aligned and of identical separating distance. But the plugs and sockets are not symmetrical.
Some are 1, 2, 3, 4 in the upper/lower sections and 7, 10, 12,13 for the center "straight pins of lengths" Maybe bars of terminals for each possible length

I'll get back with the details next week
 

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Yves
One other thing to look at is where to route the wires from the connectors. If you look at the test adapter that I made for the battery connector, you will see that part of it is cut out to allow the wires to pass through it. We will need to do the same for this test connector. We should note which pins we will want to monitor, and which we will not. If need be, we can cut out the test connector and route the wires through areas where the pins are of no interest.
Mike
 

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Throttle with electric priority would increase MPG

Since looking at the possibility of getting the electric assist and regeneration under manual control, I have been doing mental simulations to see how I would use such a control, and it's likely effect on MPG.
The logic of using the gas motor for the torque of maintaining speed,(gas priority) means gas milage is always the first thing to suffer when needing a slight increase in torque to maintain speed. If the gas engine output was held at say 100 mpg, and slight throttle compensations instead invoked assist or regen, one could both maintain speed, and get high MPG.
Hopefully we may know the answer before too long.
 

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As for estimates of likely resulting mpg, I think we may actually have originally underestimated. The EnergyCS guys have finally ironed out the bugs in their Plug-in Prius (see here), and it looks like their electric-assist basically triples mileage to about 150mpg, so we could be looking at maybe 225mpg at the end of the day? But maybe we should push for 300! ;)

I think the most interesting part of their conversion, however, is the choice of batteries. The Saphion LiIons are only ~100Wh/kg, but are inherently safe (no fires possible due to unique chemistry), long cycle life and can be easily wired up like traditional lead acid cells, so no fiddling about with loads of tiny 18650s (which would ultimately be much better, IMHO!). You can read about their safety and other benefits etc here.

It looks like the cells are nicely sized to make up a pack (see pic of their conversion below). That's a 9kWh pack in the picture.

http://www.evworld.com/images/energycs_pluginprius.jpg

The individual cells are packaged to be the same size as a lead acid 12volt, and wired up the same (see below):

http://www.ai-online.com/images/ace/2005-02/013_image1.jpg

:)

[Moderator Note] Please use links for non Insight related images.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
The terminals 4 and 12 on connector C and the terminal 3 and 4 of connector A was not conclusive
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Hi guys,

Here are results from just putting the tip of a meter (has frequency and % duty cycle for pulse wave width) into the MCM "C" and the other tip to the ground. Those are terminals that are between the ECM and the MCM. As the manuals says the ECM does the request for IMA assistance/regen

Terminal 1, ENGTRQ Engine Torque seemed not to work best in %mode as it gave always about 10% duty cycle but in "frequency" mode it had something similar to:
Full assist ---------- 2 Hz
4 bars of assist --- 50 Hz
No assist ---------- 80 Hz


THE MOST IMPORTANT TERMINAL:
=====================
The terminal 2 named CMDPWR or command power had always this result

Full assist ----------- 90%+
4 bars of assist --- 70%
No assist ----------- 50%
4 bars of regen ---- 40%
All bars of regen --- 20%-


So the Terminal 2 of the MCM "C" named CMDPWR is the one that the ECM uses to
ask for more IMA
Without any IMA usage it was 50% always, with some assist the % was higher than 50% and with regen it was lower than 50%


Therefore I think that CMDPWR is one of the connections that makes the ECM call for the MCM assist/regen. It uses pulse width +- 50%

Maybe that using an oscillator (temporarely removing hte communication), varying the pulse width here could control manually the IMA to either Assist or Regen
 

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Discussion Starter #10
The project is going to be called the MIMA as decided with Mike ( Manual IMA),
THANKS to him for the circuit I made a board with an oscillator to give a 2KHz wave frequency and a duty cycle of 36% to 76%. It is not the entire possible range but it was sufficient for the test. It actually worked down to 10% while regen but could not go higher than 76% as it stoped. It is only a prototype for proof of concept.

Here is the result AND IT IS GOOD, IT WORKS !!
I have built the first MIMA version 0.1. It has a switch to either get the normal IMA control or the manual MIMA control

Note that the runs where on local streets at about 50 to 60 KM/H:

1) When the engine runs on the MIMA alone at 50%, there is no assist and no
regen. Only the ICE, no error code.

3) For regen, wow! I could almost stop the car like I was using the brakes. I
was thrown into my seat belt when I used it the first time at full regen. The MIMA was able to go to 10%
and that "really" brakes. I had all bars of regen and more braking power.

4) For assist, it was better than normal but not as much a difference as with
regen. But the MIMA could not get higher than about 76% and would stop. With
the IMA normal, I could see that the duty cycle could rize to 90% so it is
why I could not get more than about half of the Assist. But it was at a time where I would have had none or not more than a few bars. A MIMA with a wave of
up to 90% could easily show better results as the IMA itself can easily go
above 76%


IMPORTANT:
==============
For total manual control, there is a need to control the Engine Torque Input
probably. I could not control the IMA assist without some pedal pressure on
the gas, probably to induce some torque input.

And the opposite is also true, I could not get Regen without removing some of the gas pedal pressure to remove some of the torque.
But I could get regen while driving at a point where I had to press the gas pedal not to slow down

Basically, I had to press the gas pedal a little before I could get Assist,
although more assist than the normal IMA.
I had to remove slitly my foot of the gas to induce some regen, but more regen
than the IMA alone.


So with a control that would shorten or stretch the wave, it would be just
perfect.
And for total control, the engine torque is needed.


It is really easy to tap into the ECM/MCM connections into
the "Manual Transmission Shift Console" All the wires are there and some
slack is present. It is also a best place to put a MIMA control with some
lever or butons.
Only 4 bolts and 2 pins to remove along with the Shifter knob

Here are the pictures.
Of the system at normal driving at 49.8% of duty cycle


And one of the board with the pot to allow from around 30% to 50% and about 75%


Here is MIMA v0.1 (cheap and quick)


So now, Mike will look into a controler that will have the input wave length and output the new wave length. To actually just improve regen or improve assist.
This would be MIMA version 0.2
 

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Yves & Group
The most encouraging thing about the test was that you were able to control the assist and regen with no error codes, even making the regen come on while into the gas, like the forced charge mode. The difference, you can controll the extent and stop the regen at any time. Based on the aggressive regen you were able to do, there should be no problem "saving the brakes", and keeping the IMA pack topped off in many driving situations. The other thing that is great is that all of the safety systems to keep the pack and motor from overheating, over charging, or other failure modes are still in place.
I will dedicate this coming week to working out the design, and building us two version 0.2 MIMA Control Computers. (MIMACC)
The goal being to enter the modified Hybrid road rally at the Tour de Sol, or at least to show up there with two working MIMA controls.

For you people that bring up the sure loss of energy that always comes from charging batteries, Think about how much energy is lost when stepping on the gas to maintain momentum and speed on a hilly road, when the IMA pack may be fully charged and able to easily crest the hill on it's own. The gas engine becomes the average power plant, and the IMA becomes the short term power producer and absorber.
Cool
 

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Are you still thinking of adding more batteries and/or better batteries?

I have solar power for my house, and it would be interesting to be able to charge the Insight batteries up from the solar electric on the roof as a good zero emission energy source.

I have thought of this, but with the limited power in the stock batteries, it doesn't seem to make a lot of sense since they hold so little energy.

With an increase in the energy storage in an improved or extended battery pack, it would be a really nice hybrid which could get into the 120 to 150 mpg range easily.

What I would envision is that the batteries and MIMA system would allow me to do trips of < 5-10 miles which are the worst ones for mpg. Then the normal IMA would be available for the other trips and the longer trips like >200 miles. It seems the perfect marriage of a true EV with a hybrid like the Insight with a long range.

I look forward to hearing your progress.

p.s. Don't forget that the turbo appears to be making the Insight more fuel efficient at higher speeds than normal, so maybe this extra power would be used by the MIMA system to charge at speed - just as you describe, but with the turbo providing effectively recycling the waste energy otherwise lost in the exhaust into battery stored energy.

Coooooool! 8)
 

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Thanks for the positive feedback guys.
Present state of the project now available on the new pages I put up last night.
http://pages.cthome.net/genesisone/MIMA.htm
Summary:
Now there are two MIMA Insights.
I built up a new circuit and interfaced it to my car.
Made control box with switchover switch, and joystick, that mounts to shift lever.
Drove ~ 200 miles while switching in and out of the MIMA mode.

Persent level of control is limited, as one must still step down on the gas to switch the mamode 1 and 2 state .
Mamode 2 = high when decelerating or neutral load on engine
lo when accelerating
Mamode 1= 20khz 50% dutycycle when engine load is mid to low
20khz 25% dutycycle when engine load is high
when at 25% duty cycle, full MIMA accel control is available
Results of test drive:

Even with the limitations, this is neat, and in my mind long overdue.

A whole new level of control of forced charging, and regen is already working.
Can retain full regen right to a full stop.
Can modulate that regen to control deceleration without using brakes.
The MIMA assist has several distinct modes.
a. switch in MIMA mode, joystick centered, result, No assist or regen. This is the mode that Insightful trekker wanted to have., it basically turns off the IMA.
b. mamode 2 drops from high to lo when throttle just switches into acceleration, but no MIMA assist is available yet. This is the control that gets one back to no assist mode once you have been in the assist mode.
c. mamode 1 switches to a 20khz 25% duty cycle when one is requesting lots of power. Here full MIMA control of assist is available. From using it extensively on last nights drive, all I can say is that it is sweet to have full assist up hills while backing off on the throttle to 60MPG, Back off more than that and mamode 1 switches back to 20khz 50% duty cycle, and assist is prevented.
Because of the more aggressive regen control, the ability to turn off a forced charge when climbing hills, and the ability to maintain full regen all the way to a stop, I never had the SOC drop below 50% the whole drive.
My MPG for the full trip, was 59 MPG.
This is without the ability to get assist without first getting into mamode1 assist allowed mode, and some pretty aggressive 70+ MPH driving the whole way.
An interesting effect of the switching from normal to MIMA mode is that I always got 4 bars of forced charging when switching back to the normal mode, unless I was over the 3/4 SOC point where I suspect some background charging was still taking place.
Need to climb a hill, switch back to MIMA mode, and forced charging can be turned on or off or controlled with the MIMA joystick. Kick down on the accelerator, to switch mamode 2 lo and mamode1 25% dutycycle modes, and full assist proportional control is available with the joystick, even while backing off with the throttle.
The IMA torque really can be felt like a turbo kicking in, and the acceleration once the revs get into the 4K range is much higher than is normally allowed.
I would really like to see the 0-60 times with the turbo mod plus the full MIMA acceleration mode .

Today's work will be to build a solid plug in PC card (breadboard is too fragile and easy to dislodge parts from) to include 3 switchover mechanical relays, and circuits to generate and substitute the mamode 1 and mamode 2 signals.
This will hopefully allow fooling the MCM into allowing full accel control at any throttle setting, and will not genetate any trouble codes.

If successful,I will put up a schematic on my MIMA circuit page.
http://pages.cthome.net/genesisone/MIMAcircuit.htm
I will generate a parts list with links to the Digi-Key website, and also place it there.
I will put up an instalation page, explaining how to connect to the car.
Test results will be on:
http://pages.cthome.net/genesisone/test_results.htm
AS we get more people connecting this to their cars, the different user interfaces will be detailed on:
http://pages.cthome.net/genesisone/mima ... erface.htm
Thanks for all the private e-mails showing support for this project, and Thanks Yves for being brave enough to be the first to dig in and cut that first wire, as well as your continuing support and cooperation.
Yves and I feel that this information should be freely shared with all other interested people, as it has so much potential.
Great fun

:D :wink:
 

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I love it!

I want to spend some time with just the turbo, but I am very interested in MIMA - and the MIMA turbo combination.

Maybe it would be possible to do the combo in Jane (have to work that out and maybe steal Jane from GF before this can happen) and do a DVD installation movie of the turbo kit installation and the prototype MIMA.

I get a little worried when I read about how the Honda engines can be a little fragile compared to some heavy beast 'performance' engine made to take high stress levels - for turbo we keep boost low enough to not hurt stock - how do we know we are keeping torque levels acceptable when we are using increeased assist outside of the normal IMA system control?

For example, now the assist is only coming on full when you are giving it lots of throttle, and the ICE is trying hard to put in its own contribution. Does that mean that the torque on the electric motor drive shaft is reduced because of the 'help' from the ICE to accelerate the car? If we then make the car accelerate the same amount without the ICE helping, are we then putting too much torque on that shaft?

I am sure you are thinking of that. Can it be measured somehow to get a real quantitative result? Could a dyno test tell what the normal IMA is doing vs. the MIMA in terms of torque?

Those are thoughts. Super idea now implemented!
 

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Hi Mike,

Boy you two were chomping at the bit. ;)

If your still interested in the breakout connectors let me know. There in a box ready to ship. But from my read here looks like its too late. :(

I am still _very_ concerned in regard to two points:

1) have you actually "looked" at the ENGTRQ (the MCM input signal that is modified?) wave form. Is your inserted signal within "tolerance" of what a transistor (?) in the MCM is designed to "take" in the long term? (voltage, frequency and waveform)

2) AFAI remember there is a _major_ design concern in regard to coupling an ICE and IMA motor. Without a reasonably "close" tolerance in matching torque output between these engines a magnetic shearing will occur in the IMA motor. What sort of spikes / surges will be sent to the MPI module? And won't such shearing cause a rapid and extreme temperature spike in the IMA motor windings? Or as a consequence contribute to more rapid degaussing of the rotor magnet?

Where's John Wayland when you need him <g>?

[EDIT so as not to bump the thread up the list unnecessairly]

For those interested in the MIMA project or those still wondering what it is the threads have become too fragmented for the developer to maintain and he has requested that his other MIMA threads be locked.

Please understand that any further suggestions for design changes will not be honored since the process is too far along. However, since its *opertation* can be easily modded in software such limited opinions will be welcome.

A few of the old threads that will most likely answer all your questions are here:

Hybrid controls and the MIMA project
http://www.insightcentral.net/forum/vie ... php?t=2471

Mima Statue Update
http://www.insightcentral.net/forum/vie ... php?t=3176

MIMA L works in a CVT (automatic circuitry with foot pedal)
http://www.insightcentral.net/forum/vie ... php?t=3233
(Moderators note: the newest version of MIMA is CVT compatable)

MIMA Display and Joystick Housings
http://www.insightcentral.net/forum/vie ... php?t=3353

The developers site is here:

http://pages.cthome.net/genesisone/index.htm

Its a complex topic and modification. And one that should be carefully reviewed if your deciding on purchase. The purchase thread is here:

http://www.insightcentral.net/forum/vie ... 9&start=15


The subject is still open for discussion at the developers selected for consolidation thread here:

http://www.insightcentral.net/forum/vie ... php?t=3357

Locking other threads. Future MIMA threads will be locked and follow-up's directed to the thread above.

Sincerely,
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Mike, you forgot to write about the possibility of an "Electric cruise control". To allow the IMA to keep the car speed without the use of any gas!
 

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Hi John
Yea we are well past the breakout box into cutting wires and tapping into harnesses.

On your first question.
The method that they use for inter-module signals is to have a pull up resistor in the recieving module, and the driving module has an open collector pull down transistor.
The signal we are replacing is the command power signal. We simply cut the wire and use an open collector transistor on our output to pull down the line. A pull up resistor in our circuit allows the original circuit to drive the trigger input of the 74c221 one shot. so the frequency matches. The signal is kept within normal operational PWM bounds.
Question 2.
My gut says that since we are not playing with the output driver stage, only sending comands to the normal inputs of the MCM, all of the important safety concerns should still be handled by the MCM, which has internal safety circuits to keep it working within it's normal range of power and temperature. The major difference in power that I sensed on my 200 mile trip last night are more to do with the fact that I am able to induce full assist at a point where the internal system would be just starting to induce assist. I don't think I am getting more, just calling it up sooner.
As far as spikes and heating. I dont know?
They have a big snubber assembly to deal with the voltage transients, so we should be within normal limits.
Once the thing is working as I want it, I expect to connect a current probe and compare MIMA to non MIMA current draw to the motor, and possibly connect one of my battery monitor circuits to see what I can learn about what is happening in that area.
The three failsafe signals are not modified, so if anything bad were happening, I would expect a system lockout and code to be set as the worse thing?
Just can't know though?
I do remember John Wayland commenting in a thread, that his experience tells him that the IMA electric motor is probably capable of much more output power than it is presently being asked to provide.

I had a bad day today as my computer got messed up, and I could not get my Microchip programmer to work.
Hope to have better luck tomorrow.
The MIMA cruise control that Yves mentioned is just one of the many new things one could do with the external control.
When we get the full MIMA working, and have a microcontroller tied into the car, We could monitor the vechicle speed pulse, and make an electric cruise control that modulates the electric drive to try and maintain speed. It probably would need a bigger battery pack to be of any use. A setable manual throttle lock like some of the guys are using, could set the baseline gas contribution to the power, with the electrics adding or subtracting torque to maintain speed.
Could work, I probably would not use it as my main reason for wanting the MIMA was to not have any computer driving the IMA.
Hope I have better luck tomorrow.
Can't wait to try it out again.

:D
 

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Mike Dabrowski 2000 said:
Hi John
Yea we are well past the breakout box into cutting wires and tapping into harnesses.
Still too early for me to jump on this bandwagon. I'd _need_ to know some of the other signals and their responses to the modification _before_ I'd commit to any long term usage. Maybe the breakout box will be wanted in the future...

Mike Dabrowski 2000 said:
They have a big snubber assembly to deal with the voltage transients, so we should be within normal limits.
Once the thing is working as I want it, I expect to connect a current probe and compare MIMA to non MIMA current draw to the motor, and possibly connect one of my battery monitor circuits to see what I can learn about what is happening in that area.
The three fail-safe signals are not modified, so if anything bad were happening, I would expect a system lockout and code to be set as the worse thing?
Just can't know though?
I think I remember Armin has some data as to charge / assist bars, time duration of charge / assist and the resulting current flows.

Armin :?: :?: :?: :)

Potential for additional _normal_ load on the motor is probably there. Its a torque imbalance, where either the IMA ot ICE's torque "fight" each other, similar to Yves initial report of needing to manually balance ICE by using the gas pedal that concerns me. These "loads" have the potential to be several times greater than any "normal" amount needed to push the car down the road.

Granted the IMA battery pack should still have all the BCM programmed management controls in full force. It will be interesting to see how much more often thermal cutoff is seen when the IMA batteries duty cycle is increased. However, we _are_ defeating MCM management controls by increasing IMA duty (if you chose the MIMA assist mode ;) ). How much additional load in the form of current or heat the snubber, IMA motor windings, batteries, etc. can reliably take is yet to be seen. Some temperature data in this regard would be a good idea. The motor windings being one of the more difficult locations to access.

And of course the obvious problem is that the more you cycle the IMA batteries the sooner they _will_ fail. :(

Stating my concerns here in hopes of a fellow Insighter with the correct and required knowledge base will help fill in these blanks. ;) :D
 

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Figgy, the IMA motor uses the same drive shaft as the ICE. The IMA motor will only put out its rated horse power when turned fully on. The only difference is that the MIMA allows it to be turned on fully by manual means.

Honda engines seem really tough from the people I've talked to and the articles I've read. However, because the Insight was designed for lightness it may not be as tough as a regular Honda engine.

As for regular Honda engines, a friend who spent some time in Japan told me years ago that Honda built turbo versions of their popular cars for sale in Japan but never exported them to North America! He was looking in to buying a turbo Prelude there and shipping it back to the States. Since then many have designed turbo kits for our market.

As for size....things get weaker as they get bigger according to physics. As an example compare the ant to the elephant. The elephant needs thick legs to support its weight whhereas the ant can carry many times its own weight on those really skinny legs! Yes, I realise part of it is due to the ant having an exo skeleton, but still. :D

My concern has always been the drive shafts, but as someone pointed out, torque is limited by the slippage of the tires, and probably the greatest test of the drive shaft is when you hit a pothole. I don't think you have to worry.
 

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As with any dynamic system, sometimes you just have to try it out and carefully monitor what happens, to see if there is a problem. I am willing to take the chance many will not. Time will tell if it is a problem. My experience last night was that I was easily able to keep the battery charged between 1/2 and 3/4. This is better than the regular IMA control which allows a wider swing in SOC. It helped that it went into forced charge whenever I went back to normal IMA control, That means less cycling, more frequent charging, verses deeper cycles with the IMA control.
IMHO
 
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